Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: St Paul and Women Message-ID: Date: 24 May 91 04:28:51 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton Lines: 107 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article smithjh@argus.CS.ORST.EDU (Jeremy Smith) writes: >In article tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake [That's me!]) writes: >> >>I of course agree with you that bickering gets us nowhere. It is most >>important that we get on with the work of the kingdom. I believe that >>acceptance is central to Paul's teaching, and to Christ's. >Acceptance of what? Acceptance of whom? Acceptance of our brothers and sisters beliefs, even if they vary from our own, assuming that they are attempting to follow the laws of God as earnestly as we are. (I am not advocating the acceptance of Satanists, their purposes are not ours. They are not trying to follow the laws of God, they reject the laws of God intentionally.) For instance, you are fond of I Corinthians 14:34. Let's look earlier in the chapter... I Corinthians 14:1-4 It is love, then that you should strive for. Set your hearts on spiritual gifts, especially the gift of proclaiming God's message. 2 The one who speaks in strange tongues does not speak to others but to God, because no one understands him. He is speaking secret truths by the power of the Spirit. 3 But the one who proclaims God's message speaks to people and gives them help, encouragement, and comfort. 4 The one who speaks in strange tongues helps only himself, but the one who proclaims God's message helps the whole church. (TEV) Paul goes on to talk about how speaking in tongues is really pretty useless unless there is someone around to interpret. Instead of focusing on gifts like this, ... I Corinthians 14:12 ... 12 Since you are eager to have the gifts of the Spirit, you must try above everything else to make greater use of those which help to build up the church. (TEV) In Paul's letter to the Romans, he spends quite a lot of time discussing matters of division in the church of Rome. It seems to me that in essense he tells the Jews not to try to make Gentiles into Jews, and he tells the Gentiles to respect the beliefs of the Jews, because there is neither Jew nor Gentile, only Christian. (Christians with different beliefs and practices, which they concientiously hold to.) >Mainly, I am curious how Christians arrive at a different interpretation >than my own of I Corinthians 14:34: > >"Let women be silent in the churches, for it is not permitted for them >to speak, but let them be subject, as the law also says." > >(I am not being sarcastic here, or anywhere else in this posting) I understand and respect your sincerity. >>In Acts 11, some of the apostles lay into Peter for staying with >>uncircumcised Gentiles. But, Peter witnesses on behalf of the Gentiles, >>that they were given the same gift of the spirit that they were. They >>rejoice, and change their minds. Certainly their original stand was >>biblicaly based, but when faced with Peter's testimony, they decided >>that God felt differently. >1) Circumcision has never been a basis for salvation or righteousness... > There has never been righteousness in the law, therefore the folly of > the apostles was not biblically based. God is too smart to contrdict > himself. > Abraham is an example of a pre-New Testament uncircumcised Godly man. Then if the Apostles could make such a major blunder, why couldn't Paul make an equally major blunder? >The scripture is "God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for >reproof(testing), for instruction in righteousness." Unless the Holy >Spirit somehow teaches us that the time has come for both men and women >to lead each other, we(Christians) know that the scripture is profitable >for use as a test for truth in these matters... I would say that the holy spirit has given us such a teaching. What would it take for you to say it? Must it be written in the clouds? Must a voice boom from the sky? I testify that I have seen the signs. You don't accept my testimony, have you examined the signs yourself? Go! Find a congregation led by a woman. Learn from that congregation. Tell me then if you believe that women cannot be called by the spirit. People have used scripture to prove many things over the years. Please do not tell me that your, (or my), limited understanding of the scripture holds sway over the workings of the Spirit. I tell you that the Spirit is working through these women today. Recently I told of a woman clergy friend's invitation to a clergyman from another denomination to come and hear her preach, and then they would discuss whether or not she was called by God. This woman is new to the ministry, she has been given a charge consisting of three small congregations. In the time she has served so far, (less than a year), attendance is up in *all three* congregations. One of the churches under her charge was vandalized, the children responsible were brought to church by their parents, (not members of the congregation), and they apologized. My friend turned this incident into an opportunity for ministry. She has restarted sunday schools, and youth fellowships. She has been working to bring three congregations that were dying back to life! I'm sorry if it offends you, but from all I have seen of this woman's ministry, I cannot accept that her calling comes from anyone but God. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton