Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: Frank.Farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Was the Gospel ever removed from this Earth? Message-ID: Date: 24 May 91 04:39:11 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 103 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , davidbu@loowit.wr.tek.com (David E. Buxton) writes: >Nothing can prevail against the church and its foundation: > David, you have said a lot, and I don't have the time to respond to each one of your statements. What I will do is to respond to the general notion that the church which Jesus started has existed on this earth, uninterrupted until now. Daniel 2:44-45 ============== " And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdome shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." "Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass here after: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure." The prophesies of Daniel deals extensively with this issue. In Daniel's interpretation of the king's dream, the image is explained. It is well understood that the feet and the toes of the image represent the European nations which were formed after the disintegration of Rome, or in other words after Jesus Christ. As you see, there is no promise given that the "kingdom" after Christ will prevail, but it is clearly stated that the kingdom which will stand for ever will be established *after* Christ. Rev 13:7 ======== "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to over come them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tounges, and nations." As you can see, the apostle John did understand that Christ church was not going to preveal, but will fall. Satan is to be victorious by overcoming them. Power was given him over all kindreds, and tounges, and nations. The apostle John prophesied, that the time would come when the gospel of Jesus Christ would once again be brought to earth by the ministration of an angel: Rev 14:6 ======== "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred and toungue and people," You may notice the almost identical wordings in the two quotes from revelation, clearly indicating that one would follow the other. Also, the apostle Peter said the following, because he also understood that the church wouldn't survive. Acts 3:21 ========= "Whom the heavens must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began" Now, why is it that Peter look towards to the time of the "restitution of all things"? Why did he believed that "all things" had to be restored, if we believe that not anything was ever lost? If you notice, Peter didn't say that some things will be restored, but he said that *all* things will be restored. As you can see, things are not as simple as you would make it out to be. Clearly some passages which you have used to support your conclusion are misused. For example: "Then Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen." -- Mat 28:18-20 (NKJ) In this passage Jesus is talking specifically to the 11 apostles. The promise that he would be with them is specifically given to them. Even so, they all died a martyr's death, with the exception, perhaps of the apostle John. His promise that he would be with them didn't save them from persecution and death. So, what does it mean that he will be with them? I believe that your use of this passage to support your conclusion that the church of Jesus Christ survived to the present day is highly questionable. Even if you disagree with my narrower interpreatation of this passage, you would agree that the promise doesn't apply to those who would apostatize. If eventually, all fall away after one or two hundred years, than there would be no one left to whom this promise would apply to. I will be going on vacation for two weeks, so unfortunately I won't be able to respond until I return. I would like to ask you to send the responses directly to me, in addition to posting it on s.r.c. this way I will be able to respond when I return. Thanks. With brotherly love, Frank