Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!usc!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: jquilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz (James William Quilty) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: The Sabbath (Jim, Selby, etc. Message-ID: Date: 26 May 91 06:09:37 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Computer Science, Victoria University, Wellington, NewZealand Lines: 414 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Key: KJV = King James Version NIV = New International Version TEV = Good News Bible (Today's English Version) Asterisks *around* a word denote that the word was printed in itallics in the original. In article , george@electro.com (George Reimer) writes: > The curse of the law was not the Law itself > but rather it was the death penalty demanded by the law . I disagree. Consider: Galatians 3:10-14 KJV: " For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which 11 are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: the just shall 12 live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them 13 shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that 14 hangeth upon a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." NIV: " All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the 11 Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, 12 because, "The righteous shall live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by 13 them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." TEV: " Those who depend on obeying the law live under a curse. For the scripture says, "Whoever does not always obey everything that is in the 11 book of the Law is under God's curse !" Now, it is clear that no one is put right with God by means of the Law, because the scripture says, "Only 12 the person who is put right with God by faith shall live." But the Law has nothing to do with faith. Instead, as the scripture says, "Whoever *does* [I don't have itallics - Jim] everything the Law requires will 13 live." But by becoming a curse for us Christ has redeemed us from the curse that the law brings; for the scripture says, "Anyone who is 14 hanged on a tree is under God's curse." Christ did this in order that the blessing which God promised to Abraham might be given to the Gentiles by means of Christ Jesus, so that through faith we might receive the Spirit promised by God." I think that it is more consistent with the Bible to consider that the curse of the law is: that it must be kept perfectly and, that, we can't do. I shall (probably) refer back to these verses later. > The question is this. If grace pays the penalty of your past > sins as Paul says it does, then what are you doing to avoid > having the death penalty placed against you again? > ( wages of sin is death ) > Do you not go to Christ, our High Priest, and ask for forgiveness > via His payment on the cross? What would happen if you didn't? > Can you take this grace for granted? I know what my answers are. You exhibit an attitude of "saved by faith but kept by works". It is unsupported by the Bible. Consider: Romans 11:5-6 TEV: " It is the same way now: there is a small number left of those whom God 6 has chosen because of his grace. His choice is based on his grace, not on what they have done. For if God's choice were based on what people do, then his grace would not be real grace." NIV: " So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." KJV: " Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to 6 the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." The Bible tells me that I CAN take God's grace for granted ! indeed, if I try to do anything to improve my position with God, I only fall further away: Galatians 5:4 (But do read the whole letter !) NIV: " You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." TEV: " Those who try to be put right with God by obeying the Law have cut yourselves off from Christ. You are outside God's grace." KJV: " Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." The whole thrust of your statement is SDA doctrine (the investigative judgement) which is not based on scripture ! For those of you not familiar with SDA doctrine, the Investigative Judgement is a process that is said to be continuing right now: Christ is looking through the records of everyone's lives and comparing the way that they have lived with the Ten Commandments. This judgement is NOT based on faith. Some quotes from the prophetess of SDAism might be appropriate here: (on the subject of the investigative judgement) "The law of God [the ten commandments in the context of the passage - Jim] is the standard by which the characters and lives of men will be tested in the judgement" (1) "When any have sins remaining upon the books of record, unrepented of and unforgiven, their names will be blotted out of the book of life, and the record of their good deeds will be erased from the book of God's remembrance." (2) (1) Ellen G White "The Great Controversy" p. 482 (2) Ellen G White op. cit. p. 483 This is the basis for the doctrine of the investigative judgement (there is lots more along the same lines in Ellen White's books and SDA teaching material. SDAs interpret the OT day of atonement, etc. typologically rather than by explicit scriptural teaching. And in the history of the group, the Heavenly sanctuary part of the investigative judgement [which I haven't mentioned because it's complicated and irrelevant just now] had to be invented in order to cover [one of many] muffed prophecies - this one about the end of the world: "The great disappointment" it is called by SDAs.) I know what my answers are too - "I know now that I am saved by the grace of God and my faith in Jesus, and that absolutely nothing that I DO will EVER change that - I am secure in my salvation by faith in Jesus" Here is a question for every SDA: Can you say the same, or is your salvation conditional on sabbath-keeping etc. ???? > Let James convince you if anyone will : > "But do you want to know, O foolish man, > that faith without works is dead?" Put that in context PLEASE - it *does not* in any way contradict salvation by faith alone !!! To help, here is a quote from "The Lion Handbook to the Bible", p.634: ***** James 2:14-26 FAITH AND ACTIONS "Faith that stops at words is not faith at all. Even the devil believes in God in that way, but it won't save him from God's judgement. Faith is proved - and develops - as we act on it. God accepted Abraham (Genisis 15:1-6; 22) and Rahab (Joshua 2) not because they *said* they believed him, but because they proved it by what they did. It is a good test. VERSE 24: only by taking this right out of context can James be made to contradict Paul (Romans 4). James is discussing the difference between real faith and mere words; he is not saying we can earn salvation." ***** will you disagree with this analysis after reading the context again ? > My illumination comes from God through the Holy Spirit. Do you mean Ellen White ? (SDA doctrine says that the Holy Spirit inspired Ellen White to write the things she did, and asserts: "... these instructions [Ellen White's writings, in the context of the passage - Jim], in our understanding, are in harmony with the word of God. ..." - "SDAs Answer Questions on Doctrine" p.93) Or are you claiming to be a prophet yourself ? :-) > You simply cannot support Sunday Sabbath keeping using Scripture. Easily can, have done before ! :-) > Even the Catholic Church acknowledges this position. Read the > following quotations from Catholic literature. Heard it before - What the Catholics CLAIM is irrelevant (and inaccurate) !!! > Paul is talking about the *record of our sins* > being nailed to the cross, not the *law*. Read it again and see if it > doesn't make more sense! It is our sins that have been done away with. Here is the verse in question: Colossians 2:13-15 KJV: " And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses: 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it." NIV: " When you were dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the 15 cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross." TEV: " You were at one time spiritually dead because of your sins and because you were Gentiles without the Law. But God has now brought you to life 14 with Christ. God forgave us all our sins; he cancelled the unfavourable record of our debts with its binding rules and did away with it 15 completely by nailing it to the cross. And on that cross Christ freed himself from the power of the spiritual rulers and authorities; [or: Christ stripped the spiritual rulers and authorities of their power - this appears as a footnote in the TEV - Jim] he made a public spectacle of them by leading them as captives in his victory procession." As one might see, the above verses refer to the thing that was nailed to the cross as something having: "ordinances" - KJV ; "a written code, with regulations" - NIV ; and "binding rules" - TEV. Sins don't have any of these things ! Also note Ephesians 2:15 TEV: " He [Jesus] abolished the Jewish Law with its commandments and rules, in order to create out of the two races one new people in union with himself, in this way making peace." NIV: "... by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, ..." [the punctuation of verses in the NIV differs here from the KJV and TEV, splitting verse 15 between two sentences - read the NIV from verse 14-16 if you want more continuity !] KJV: " Having abolished in his flesh the emnity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" It seems quite obvious here - laws have been done away with. You might like to refer to my other posting (on the sabbath also) where I discuss the ten commandments in relation to the assertion that we MUST keep them IF we love God and our neighbour. > iii) Finally, verses 16 and 17 of chapter two. You might have understood by > now that what Paul was discussing was false teachings in the Colossian > Church and NOT the removal of God's law. More specifically, Paul is not > discussing the abolishion of Sabbath laws, but on the contrary, he is > *embedding* them even deeper through Christ. > > "Therefore let no man judge you in eating or drinking, > or regarding feast day or a new moon or sabbaths, > ( which are a shadow of things to come ) > but the body of Christ." Your rendition is not quite what my Bibles say: Colossians 2:16-17 KJV: " Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." NIV: " Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival , a New Moon celebration, or a Sabbath 17 day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." TEV: " So let no one make rules about what you eat or drink or about holy days 17 or the New Moon Festival or the Sabbath. All such things are only a shadow of things in the future; the reality is Christ." I don't know where you got your quote from, but it seems VERY inaccurate. Your assertions that we should let "the body of Christ" judge us on these matters are simply not borne out by the scriptures - see the above (accurate, I have double checked them !) quotations from what the Bible really says ! NOTE: the sabbath, etc. are said to be a shadow of things that WERE to come ! we can see that the thing that was to come was Jesus ! (the reality is Christ !) and so the shadows are not needed any more !!! (we no longer need keep rules about sabbaths, or food, or anything - we are set free in Christ !) Also see Hebrews 10:1 KJV: " For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of these things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." NIV: " The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming - not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, those who draw near to worship." TEV: " The Jewish Law is not a full and faithful model of the real things; it is only a faint outline of the good things to come. The same sacrifices are offered forever, year after year. How can the Law, then, by means of these sacrifices make perfect the people who come to God ?" We know, as is expanded in the rest of Hebrews that Jesus is the reality, and food laws, sacrifices, sabbaths, etc. are no longer relevant ! refer Galatians 3:23-25 TEV: " But before the time for faith came, the Law kept us all locked up as 24 prisoners until this coming faith should be revealed. And so the Law was in charge of us until Christ came, in order that we might then be put 25 right with God through faith. Now that the time for faith is here, the Law is no longer in charge of us." KJV: " But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the 24 faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by 25 faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." NIV: " Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up 24 until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead 25 us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law." And this means ANY law, including the ten commandments, for if the ten commandments stand against us, then we must keep them perfectly, otherwise, we are guilty of having broken the entire law if we fail to keep just one little part of the ten !!! > "If you love Me, keep my commandments" Please refer to my other posting where this out-of-context verse is treated more accurately ! > God created the Sabbath. It was specified to be the the seventh > day of a seven day weekly cycle. God declared that this period of > time was *holy*. We honor God by keeping those things holy > which God has made holy. By what authority do you or any other > man declare _unholy_ that which God has made holy?! > And if you haven't and it still is holy, and you willingly profane it, > how can you enter the Kingdom? God created many other sabbaths and rules, none of which have actually been "done away with", nor has a "tittle fallen from them", it's just that now, in our union with Jesus, such matters have no claim on us, just as sin and death have no claim on Christians ! These other sabbaths, etc. are just as *holy* as each other - for which is the greatest commandment ? (and we all know the answer to this one - It's *not* the decalogue, but Love God & Love your Neighbour as yourself, and that does not mean "keep the ten commandments" [please, no one quote John 14:15 out of context to me - I have treated that one in another posting] it simply means what it says: "Love God and Love your Neighbour", then you have done what the law requires (ref my other posting, Romans 13:8-10, etc.) not "IF you love God, etc. you MUST THEN DO what the law requires". For one may DO what the law requires, but not love God, etc. The above verses (and there are plenty more verses in the Bible that I have not tapped yet) show that it is God that has done the declaring ! Read Galatians (pay particular note to chapter 3 and particular-particular note to verses 15-20 with respect to God changing things !) Do you claim to not profane the sabbath ? Do you keep the sabbath perfectly, or are you just without sin ? Either way you are in an untenable position, and, (under the SDA doctrine that you quote) one might ask: "how can you enter the Kingdom?" I can enter the kingdom of heaven through my faith in Jesus and the grace that God gives to me - and I know that there is nothing that is ever going to break that bond, ever, nothing I do, nothing I say - the fact that in the future I will 'sin' (because I am not perfect) and perhaps not even realise that I have done wrong (I refer here, not to sabbaths, or anything like that, but to sin as a whole) will not in any way alter the fact that I know now that I am saved ! Can you (or any SDA) say the same ? (or does what you do come out in the investigative judgement, and can you lose your salvation by not adhering to the rules that SDAism imposes ?) > You also seem to imply that somehow the Sabbath Law was part of this > ritualistic requirements package and therefore, also done away with. > This is not correct. The Sabbath law existed even prior to Moses being given > the Ten Commandments. The law of sacrifice however, was a law that was added > because of the transgressions of the *already existing laws*. ( Galations ) This is neither accurate or correct - if some laws were pre-existant, they all were... I'd like to see the Galatians reference ! Cain, etc. gave sacrifices to God !!!!! (if it comes to that) Just as (you might assert) he kept the sabbath. But the sabbath did not pre-exist as *law*, just like the sacrifice laws. God tells us that the laws (all of them) have been done away with - see the above verses ! It's the whole point of the NT ! (If some laws have not been 'done away' with, then we still come under the curse of the law - we MUST keep the laws PERFECTLY ! and we can't do that so we are cursed - and lose our salvation - Jesus dying on the cross makes no difference, because we are severed from him in trying to keep the law, which we must, because we are bound to do so for our salvation ! Refer to ALL of Galatians, particularly the verses I use above !) > You made various references to 'the rest' and used Hebrews as reference. > I found those comments inconsistent with the scriptures. I found your comments to be inconsistent with the scriptures myself - you chop and change, take verses out of order AND context in your desperation to show that Hebrews 'rest' (around Ch. 4) to show that the 'rest' is the sabbath ! but it's not, the sabbath is just an analogy for the heavenly rest that God's people get (ch. 3 about the 'rest' - it is the promised land ! [verse 11]) Rather than quote the Bible in verbatim-triplicate (I'm tired now ! It's been a long day !) I'll quote "The Lion Handbook to the Bible" ***** Hebrews $:1-13 GOD'S REST "The parallel is made more explicit. The 'rest' God spoke of was more than just a stable and secure life in the land he had promised. Through the psalmist (Psalm 95), hundreds of years after Joshua's day, God was still appealing to people to enter his rest. There is a spiritual counterpart to the promised land, and the passport to it is faith [NOTE: *NOT* sabbath-keeping -Jim]. We enter into God's eternal rest, his peace, as we trust him and take him at his word (3). Salvation is his gift, not a reward for our own hard work (10). And we cannot hope to conceal our real attitude from him." ***** Good night, Jim.