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From: Robert.Allen@Eng.Sun.COM (Email Mujahideen)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re:  Best Knife for a LRRP?
Message-ID: <34978@mimsy.umd.edu>
Date: 29 May 91 02:04:56 GMT
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In article <34960@mimsy.umd.edu> wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) writes:
+Ah, what a delightful topic! Considering you have dozens, if not
+hundreds, of models to choose from, this subject could go on for months!
+But lets try to narrow it down a bit. First off, though the best
+possible knife would come from a custom maker, the lead time and
+price may put this out of the question. Besides, the area I've been
+interested in is factory knives, so I'll just consider that. I always
+felt a multi-hundered-dollar custom knife wouldn't be what I'd want to
+crawl thru the mud with, and maybe lose, either in training or in real work. 

    After while you get used to it.  Plus, the confidence of having equipment
    which won't fail you is nice.  Howeverl, I hear there are problems with
    equipment getting stolen when you are in the military.
+
+Considering what is meant by "survival knife", I'm going to lean toward
+a multi-use type of blade, as opposed to a double-edged dagger type.

    I think the bowie pattern is the best thing going.  I agree that a dagger
    is of limited use.

+I'm not going to discuss hollow-handle models; as a LRRP, the man will
+have LBE and places to carry everything else he needs, and the vast
+majority of hollow-handle models are weaker than full-tang or
+reduced-tang types (except for Chris Reeve models turned out of solid
+bar stock, and those are semi-custom). The last thing a LRRP needs miles
+from home is a broken knife...

    Yup.  The original hollow handled blade, a Randall, was designed by
    a medic, who figured his use of the knife would be limited, and probably
    not too stressful.
+
+If price is an important consideration, the previously-posted pointer to
+the USMC Ka-Bar style can't be beat. It's a great knife for the money.
+Camillus and Ontario are the main makers of those these days, and the
+wholesale price is around $16, with a list around $30. Take a look at
+the knife you're buying first, though -- I had one Camillus Marine model
+arrive in a mail-order shipment where the blade grind was defective and
+there was a distinct "step" in the thickness halfway-down the blade and
+the tip was ground dull. I've been playing with re-shaping that one over
+the years... Case is making a commemorative model of these now, but it's
+no better knife and with a higher price tag. Ka-Bar also has been making
+them for the collector market; same consideration. There are cheap
+Taiwanese and suchlike copies out there; avoid those. 

    I've heard good and bad things about the USMC combat knives, aka. kabars.
    There is however now one custom maker who's making beefier, and longer ones.
+
+Randalls are great knives, but it's a sort of semi-custom type of
+operation, with standard models being hand-made, so the price is high and
+lead time is long -- the latest Randall catalog I saw gave a 2-year lead
+time. They do try to push knives being sent to active-duty Armed Forces
+members, and sometimes have some models in stock. There are dealers who
+carry Randall, but then you are paying them for their having invested
+the time in ordering and waiting for years, so the price is much greater.

    The dealers I've seen, SF Gun Exchange and Nordic Knives, seem to offer
    close to list prices on Randalls, and they usually have a good stock.
    However I had a model 1, and I was not impressed with the edge which it
    came with.  It wouldn't shave, cut rope, or even cut denim very well.
    Ultimately I sold it.  The problem with Randalls is they are all sabre
    ground, not fully flat ground.  This makes a stronger knife in a less-
    than-fully-custom situation, which is what Randall is, but IMHO you
    loose a lot of functionality.

    BlackJack knives now has a fully flatground, 7" bladed, bowie, designed
    by James Crowell.  I hear they will have other knives designed by other
    good custom makers in the future.  Blade steel quality is only half what
    it takes to make a good knife, good blade geometry is the other.

+
+Ek Knives are worthy of consideration. They have a fine tradition since
+WWII, and are full-tang models as near to unbreakable as can be. There
+are a range of models with blade shapes like traditional Bowies and with
+spear-point-shaped blades; the latter either fully-sharpened on both
+edges or with a sharpened "false edge" partway down the blade top.
+Handles are walnut or micarta held on with removable screws (so the
+knife can be disassembled for thorough cleaning), or a simple wrapping
+of "550 cord" parachute cord. The sheaths are either leather or webbing
+(I prefer the latter) and also have some extra cord wrapped on them.
+Some models are available with blackened baldes (& I guess all if you
+order direct from the factory). They also make a reduced-cost model with
+a wood non-removable handle called the "Warrior" which wholesales for
+about $40 and lists for $70; the other Eks wholesale $70-$100 and list
+in the $100-$175 range. The cord-wrapped ones are least expensive.

    The problems I have with the Ek knives are:

    1) they are stainless steel, hardened to about 59 Rc.  This is damned
    hard, and I'll bet they are tough to sharpen once they get dull.

    2) the sheaths mostly have 2 velcro release straps.  This is neither
    fast, nor silent, two things a military person is likely to want.  Once
    the velcro wears out, I'm not sure how secure they'll be either.

    3) The blades are too short (7" or so) for use in a serious campout
    situation where you might have to make your own shelter.  On the upside,
    7" is near ideal for fighting.
+
+Two other brands I'd point you toward are Black Jack and Cold Steel. The
+knives are made overseas to their specs, which helps keep prices down.
+The Black Jack Mamba is a large fighting knife with a recurved blade (a
+slight concavity in the cutting edge) and is available blackened
+(wholesale $80; retail $125-$150). Their Marauder Mark I and IA are 
+kukri-style knives with strong recurves; the IA has a bit of the top edge
+sharpened (wholesale ~$40; list ~$80/90). [The Bali-Song Bushmaster 150 is
+equivalent and a bit higher price; that's a different brand and US-made.]
+Two smaller BJ knives are the Anaconda I 8" Bowie-style ($80 list) and
+Archangel 5" blade "chute-knife" model ($65 wholesale; $100 retail). All
+these have Kraton handles.

    BlackJack is making a good name for themselves, particularly since they
    are getting license to make designs made by custom makers who have long
    waiting lists.  Actually, their Rheinhart kukri might be a pretty good
    "knife", although it's  too big to do fine work.
+
+Cold Steel makes a range of tanto-style knives (that's a Japanese blade
+shape with a slightly curved single-edge blade and a very strong point
+originally designed to pierce armor). [There are a lot of cheap import
+tantos available, but again be wary -- Cold Steel advertises their
+models by driving them thru a car door and they emerge undamaged. Maybe
+unrealistic but impressive! The cheaper ones won't take the punishment.]
+They used to make a lower-cost "Recon Tanto" with a dull-finish blade
+that's been discontinued but might be available in some shops (I keep
+one of those in my desk as my "earthquake" knife, living here by the New
+Madrid fault... :-). Some models have longer blades, others are made of
+laminated steel, so there's a wide price range up to ~$200 retail, but
+the basic model is ~$75 wholesale. They make a large Bowie called the
+Trailmaster which might be a bit heavy for your purpose, and also a 6"
+blade Bowie that sells for under $50 called the SRK you might find a
+good choice. All have kraton handles.

    IMHO Cold Steels quality has been slipping in recent years.  I have
    a master tanto, but I don't use it anymore because it was tough to
    maintain an edge on it with a stone at home, and because the steel
    of the edge chipped out under, to be fair, what was unintentionally
    abusive bevahior.  My current knives however wouldn't chip out, they
    would just bend, and I could fix that on a sharpening stone.

    Reportedly Cold Steel carbon V knives such as the SRK were popular
    in Desert Shield.  The Trailmaster is too heavy for much carry, although
    it could be made into a good knife by having it flat ground, and then
    parkerizing or tefloning the blade to prevent rust.
+
+By the way, there's a magazine on the stands and available by
+subscription called "Fighting Knives", which not only has articles on
+the very subject, and reviews of knives, but also now has a
+business-reply "bingo" card for sending in to get free info from
+advertisers; this is a first in the knife press. You might want to pick
+up an issue and look it over before making your decision. You'll also
+see ads from a number of mail-order dealers where you can get better
+prices than the average Cutlery World or Remington store in the local mall.

    Fighting Knives is OK, but the quality of the information imparted
    is variable.  Some of it is absoluate BS, while other stuff is quite
    good.  They had a review of the Cold Steel ATC chopper which absoluately
    put the lie to Cold Steels claims, which is good.  They also gave
    alternatives

    The Blade Magazine also has variable quality, with less emphasis on
    fighting blades.  The Blade is monthly.  Knives Illustrated is quarterly,
    and usually pretty good.

    BTW, for those in the SF Bay Area, there will be a big knife show at
    the SF Marriott Hotel on June 22 & 23rd.
--
    Robert Allen, rja@sun.com		DISCLAIMER: I disclaim everything.

    "The intelligent man is one who has successfully fulfilled many
     accomplishments, and is yet willing to learn more." - Ed Parker