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From: oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu (Sharon L. O'Neil)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Sexism vs. Men's Oppression
Message-ID: <15266.283c2ad5@zeus.unomaha.edu>
Date: 28 May 91 23:55:32 GMT
References: <1991May13.194337.3494@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> <282f3194.17a3@petunia.CalPoly.EDU> <14905.2833d44d@zeus.unomaha.edu> <1991May21.221824.5781@MDI.COM>
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In article <1991May21.221824.5781@MDI.COM>, gannon@MDI.COM (Alden Gannon) writes:

Alden Gannon says that I said:
> [Sharon says]
>>        My position is that men are oppressed, but that that is a separate
>>issue from feminism.  Feminists should not contribute to this oppression, but
>>they need not confuse it with their own goals, or allow it to side-track
>>their thinking.  Women have no obligation to deal with men's problems or to
>>purposely skirt issues that may cause conflicts with men.

And compares this with what I know I did say:
> [Then says]
>>	Interesting.  I went to hear Gloria Steinem speak a few months ago
>>and something that she was very sincerely concerned about was the fact that
>>the feminist movement has ignored men for so long.  Her contention was very
>>similar -- that we have to focus on the problems of men if we are going to
>>ever solve the problems of women.  Feminism involves giving /both men and
>>women/ the ability to make their own choices and live with those choices.

	Now, maybe I did say the first quote.  If I did, I need to know
	the context in which I did say it.  I went back and looked at the
	last post I made to this newsgroup, which included the first post
	as a third generation quote but it's not clear who said it.  If I
	/did/ say it, I need to know the context in which I said it.

	Well, I do believe that men are oppressed and that oppression is
	a result of the oppression of women.  But I think that men will stop
	being oppressed when they stop oppressing women.  I don't think I've
	ever oppressed a man.  If he's felt oppressed -- I think it is more
	the result of society's oppression of me as a woman than it is
	because I, personally, have oppressed him.  Case in point: if a man
	feels oppressed because social convention dictates that he hold the
	door open for me, then it is the sexist social convention which
	is oppressing him.  Not me.  I don't insist that any man hold the
	door open for me.  (I used to be upset when a man held the door open
	for me, but if he chooses to oppress himself through social convention,
	then that's his choice.)

	I don't remember the context of the first quote, but I think that
	it is reconcilable with the second.  The first says that women need to
	be concerned with their own empowerment first and men's empowerment
	second.  That's not saying that men are inferior or less worthy of
	consideration.  Men /do/ hold the power in this society and therefore
	women do have to be concerned with gaining equality first.  If men
	/feel/ oppressed by feminism, that is because men are unwilling to
	give up their unfair share of power.  I think that the whole <PC
	Controversy> was invented by men who feel intimidated by women who are
	truly outspoken and empowered.  Some men have realized that the
	accusation of discrimination can indeed be powerful and have begun to
	use this very powerful rhetoric in order to silence women and
	effectively keep them in their place.

	I personally would idealistically call myself a humanist, but I
	realize that for humanistic principles to take over -- where
	men and women are equal -- there has to be more take on the part
	of women and more give on the part of men because I believe women
	have been doing a lot more giving and men having been doing a lot
	more taking.  If men did more giving, they would be more emotional
	and nurturing, and then they would enjoy what Steinem was talking
	about in the second quote.

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 Sharon L. O'Neil | Internet: oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu | Bitnet: oneil@unoma1


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