Newsgroups: soc.feminism Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!aero-c!nadel From: oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu (Sharon L. O'Neil) Subject: Re: Sexism vs. Men's Oppression Message-ID: <15264.283c2534@zeus.unomaha.edu> Originator: nadel@aerospace.aero.org Lines: 80 Sender: news@aero.org Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA References: <1991May13.194337.3494@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> <282f3194.17a3@petunia.CalPoly.EDU> <14905.2833d44d@zeus.unomaha.edu> <1991May21.221824.5781@MDI.COM> Date: 23 May 91 20:25:24 CST Approved: nadel@aerospace.aero.org Lines: 84 In article <1991May21.221824.5781@MDI.COM>, gannon@MDI.COM (Alden Gannon) writes: >> In article <14905.2833d44d@zeus.unomaha.edu> oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu (Sharon L. O'Neil) writes: >> [Context: I argue that it is not fair to justify discrimination against women >> on the basis that they cannot be drafted or because they cannot serve in >> combat because 1) No one has been drafted since the mid-seventies, male or >> female 2) the decision to force men to register with selective service was >> made by congress, a body composed mostly of men and 3) despite the fact that >> women do not serve combat, this could change very soon, and is pretty much >> a moot point, since many women did serve in the Gulf War in combat areas in >> jobs that were not combat and 4) many women did perform duties which were >> pretty damn close to combat. Alden Gannon then replies: > I've followed this thread for some time, and I still can't see why > this is a gender issue. Whether women or men cause discrimination > based on sex doesn't matter. The fact that only men must register > with the selective service is a *law*, not a gender issue. I thought I made that clear. I merely take offense with those who would argue that women are justifiably denied their equal rights on the basis of 1) not being drafted and 2) not serving in combat. Women are not drafted and they do not serve in combat because a bunch of congressmen in Washington D.C. are afraid that it will cost them their political careers. None of them want to be characterized by their political opponents as "the guy who sent your daughter to be raped by Iraqi soldiers." In essence, we women are being told that we should accept our lot because we do nothing to protect our way of life, but then, we /are/ being denied the ability to fight in combat or being drafted. To me, it doesn't make sense. There are plenty of women (and gays and lesbians for that matter) who are willing to serve, but cannot. > Who cares > whether the legislature that drafted this law was composed of men, > women, or 3 toed sloths? In South Africa, ANC supporters in Soweto > are being murdered by radical Black Zulus. Is this violence somehow > justifiable because it's Black on Black, and would only be condemned > if the Afrikaaners were doing the killing? The draft is a > discriminatory policy, and should be changed. Seaching for a group to > "blame" for the policy seems like wasted effort. I'm not arguing whether the draft is good or bad. I'm not making a judgement about the draft one way or another. I'm merely saying that the justifications used by many to oppress women are not institutionalized by women. Women did not choose to not be drafted or not serve in combat. Someone else chose that for us. Whether or not the draft is right or wrong has nothing to do with this debate. As set up, the draft is a discriminatory policy, but too many people are blaming women for the inherent sexism (against men) in the draft -- but that blame is misdirected. Why punish women (and gays and lesbians) for not serving in combat and for not being drafted -- that is what I'm concerned about here. > So, how many women died in the Gulf War? How many out of the seventy- > something total U.S. deaths? A small number died. I can't remember the exact number -- I have a list of all who died in the Gulf War. The number /was/ less than five, but /of course/ we have to remember that women did not serve in combat positions. Or, at least, most women did not serve in combat positions. One of the pilots who died, I believe, was serving on a mission that was not classified as a combat mission, but essentially /was/ a combat mission. Do you see what I am saying now? We're talking numbers here, but those numbers are skewed because woman are denied the ability to serve in combat. If you argue that less than five women died in the Gulf War and if you argue that that is justification for denying women equal rights, then can't you see that the cards are stacked against women in the first place. (You can't get a job if you don't have any experience, but how do you get experience if you can't get a job is a poor analogy. But do you see where I am coming from?) -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sharon L. O'Neil | Internet: oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu | Bitnet: oneil@unoma1 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~