Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!usc!wuarchive!uunet!seismo!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: James.Quilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz (James William Quilty) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Day Jesus Christ Died Message-ID: Date: 30 May 91 04:16:12 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Computer Science, Victoria University, Wellington, NewZealand Lines: 192 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article , drew@anucsd.anu.edu.au (Drew Corrigan) writes: > He ate a meal which the synoptic writers term 'the Passover', but it was > not the normal Passover which everyone else ate. This is not what the Bible says, the Bible says that the time came when the Passover lamb was to be killed - and the surrounding verses are quite explicit that the meal that Jesus ate WAS the passover - the NORMAL one ! ref: (as already quoted:) Luke 22:7-8 (and onwards !) TEV: " The day came during the festival of Unleavened Bread when the lambs for the Pasover meal were to be killed. Jesus sent off Peter and John with these instructions" "Go and get the Passover meal ready for us to eat." " NOTE: the verse says "lambs" plural, NOT lamb, and that these "lambs" were to be killed for the "Passover meal" - This verse does not support your assertion that Jesus ate a special meal. Nor does it support your assertion that: "Jesus died precicely at the moment the High Priest killed the first of the Passover Lambs in the Temple" - that happened before the meal, and we see Jesus telling Peter & John to go prepare that (which he subsequently ate - verses 14 on) ALSO: Matthew 26:17-19 TEV " On the first day of the festival of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus and asked him, "Where do you want us to get the Passover meal ready 18 for you ?" "Go to a certain man in the city, " he said to them, "and tell him: 'The teacher says, My hour has come; my disciples and I will celebrate 19 the Passover at your house.' " The disciples did as Jesus had told them and 20 prepared the Passover meal. When it was evening, Jesus and the twelve disciples sat down to eat." Mark 14:12;16 TEV: " On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the day the lambs for the Passover meal were killed, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and get the Passover meal ready for you ?" [Jesus tells them to go to the city, etc, then: ] 16 " The disciples left, went to the city, and found everything just as Jesus had told them; and they prepared the Passover meal." These scriptures do not say that Jesus ate a special meal, rather "the Passover meal" was prepared at the right time (when the "Passover lambs" - for everyone - were being killed) and Jesus ate it ! Please note that the verses read: "the Passover meal" not "a Passover meal" ! IF Jesus ate a special meal, would it not have been mentioned ???!!! Rather, the Bible says explicitly that "the Passover meal" was the one that Jesus celebrated - rather inconsistent with your unbacked assertion ?!! > (Remember they hurried to get the bodies down before the Sabbath came.) This is quite consistent with Jesus dying on a THURSDAY ! NOTE: Died 3pm Thursday After sunset, it is Friday, the day of preparation for the sabbath consistent with: Mark 15:42-43 TEV: " It was towards evening when Joseph af Arimathea arrived. He was a respected member of the Council, who was waiting for the coming of the Kingdom of God. It was Preparation day (that is, the day before the Sabath), so Joseph went boldly into the presence of Pilate and asked him for the body of Jesus." Matthew 27:57 TEV: " When it was evening, a rich man from Arimathea arrived; his name was Joseph, and he also was a disciple of Jesus." Also ref. the John verse you quote: John 19:31 (verse 38 about Joseph of Arimathea) TEV: " Then the Jewish authorities asked Pilate to allow them to break the legs of the men who had been crucified, and to take the bodies down from the crosses. They requested this because it was Friday, and they did not want the bodies to stay on the crosses on the Sabbath, since the coming Sabbath was especially holy." NOTE: The particular phrasing of "Friday" here is unique to the TEV - other Bibles state "the day of preparation". This is consistent with a Thursday death of Jesus, but not of a death on a Wednesday (or any other day) Because Jesus' body was not removed from the cross and prepared until the evening - which by Jewish reconing is the NEXT DAY !!!!! We can see that when the body was to be removed from the cross, it was EVENING ! This, by Jewish reconing, was the next day, **the day before the sabbath** ! If, as you assert, Jesus was crucified the day before the passover sabbath, then he was actually buried ON the Passover sabbath (by the verses above) ! But we KNOW (from the verses above) that Jesus celebrated "the Passover meal", so a death before the Passover is contradictory to the known facts !!! > The second problem is that John tells us that the various priests and others > involved in Jesus' arrest would not enter Pilate's hall of judgment lest they > be defiled before eating the Passover. And this was sometime early in the > morning of the day Jesus died (John 18:28). Yet the Passover was to be eaten > in the evening of the 14th as the 15th (the annual Holy Day) began. Point 1: The evening of the 14th WAS the 15th, by Jewish reconing ! The Passover lamb WAS eaten on the 15th (after sunset on the 14th) by Jewish tradition - your assertion that the practice had changed slightly is ridiculous - you describe exactly what happened (and what I said, incidentally) as if it is something new ! What you say makes no difference to the known facts. Point 2: As you should know, people could become ritually unclean DURING the Passover meal and be ineligible to eat - the most common way of this happening was the touching of a dead body DURING the Passover day ! (actually, my concordance says that there was a special Passover meal held later on (I hasten to add !) in the year for those who had become ritually unclean during the Passover meal and ineligible to eat !) As you also should know, ritual uncleanliness lasted "until the evening" so, if the Priests were to become "unclean" on the day BEFORE the Passover as you assert, by the time of the Passover they would be "clean" again and able to participate !!! A person could only be invalidated from Passover celebration on the actual day of the Passover ! The John verse actually say that they wanted to keep "themselves ritually clean in order to be able to eat the Passove meal." - all this says is that the Priests had not eaten the Passover meal, but intended to THAT DAY ! Point 3: The most probable reason that the Priests had not eaten their Passover meal was that they were busy being Priests !!!! (They used to do that, you know ! :-) the sabbath was the busiest day for them !!!) Now, as far as 3 days and 3 nights are concerned, we can get them. I think that a literal period of 72 hours is unwarranted from the scripture (i.e. I haven't seen scripture that says "72 hours" ! And your extra-scriptural asertions don't cut it for me ! :-) But we get: (let me draw a little diagram) [NOTE: Jewish reckoning in force here !] Thursday : 3pm - sunset DAY Friday : sunset - dawn NIGHT { The day of preparation when Jesus was buried Friday : dawn - sunset DAY { *as above*. Saturday : sunset - dawn NIGHT { The particularly holy sabbath. Saturday : dawn - sunset DAY { *as above. Sunday : sunset - dawn NIGHT { Seen by the women that morning ! Now we get 3 days and 3 nights - count them ! AND, even better, it is consistent with the known facts ! With all due respect for your argument, it isn't consistent with the verses above ! Jim.