Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!uunet!seismo!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Sotah 49a-49b Message-ID: Date: 30 May 91 04:16:32 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Pennsylvania Lines: 54 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu writes: > >I and no one else are disputing that Joe Applegate and David Buxton are >halachically Jewish (provided that they are born of Jewish mothers). > >What I am disputing is the fact that they teach that their faith is >reconcilable with Judaism. They use this lie to trap Jews who are less >educated (ex. Soviet Jews) into believing that they can still be Jewish ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >even though they believe this other. Converts to other religions and >those that wordship idols are banned from all of the activities that >make up Judaism. They may still be Jewish in that they are breaking >Jewish law, but they are considered as criminals by that same law. > >Xian theology and Jewish law are categorically in conflict with each >other. That has been proven in *many* posts on this group and on >others. Because of the underlined phrase, I have recieved a complaint that I have made the same mistake that has been made all along. I find that claim to be valid and wish to clarify my position on this matter. I do *not* believe that someone who is born of a Jewish mother (and therefore Jewish by all standards) who converts to any religion, be it Xianity or Islam or atheism, at any time ceases to be Jewish. This is clearly stated by all the major Jewish Sages. Someone has pointed out to me that there is a minority opinion that says one who converts out of Judaism loses their Jewishness. This must be a very small minority, and doesn't significantly affect my response. However, what I (and others) are saying is that these people have turned their backs on Judaism. Judaism has enough different sects that fall under it to make it patently clear that one who does not belong (even marginally) to one of them is not Jewish in terms of their theology. For them to teach that their beliefs are reconcilable with Jewish beliefs is a distinct lie. Furthermore, one who converts out of Judaism is forbidden to participate Jewishly in the community. To be able to participate again they must make a formal declaration of recommittment to Judaism. In Orthodoxy they must be purified by `baptism' in a mikveh (call it a bath - it's close enough for the purpose :-). This may be true of other sects of Judaism - however I don't know their practices completely. I hope this clarifies my position, which is, bli neder (w/o a vow), the Orthodox position. James mejicovs@eniac.seas.upenn.edu