Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!cmf851 From: cmf851@anu.oz.au (Albert Langer) Newsgroups: comp.society.development Subject: Re: Computers and Telephones Message-ID: <1991Jun4.044628.13092@newshost.anu.edu.au> Date: 4 Jun 91 04:46:28 GMT References: <1991Jun1.124059.8093@hq.demos.su> <1991Jun2.052408.21005@newshost.anu.edu.au> Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University, Canberra, Australia. Lines: 155 In article ccfj@hippo.ru.ac.za (F. Jacot Guillarmod) writes: [>> are quotes from me] >>Thus poor phone networks are not a major issue. > >There is a difference between poor phone networks and atrocious phone >networks. Also, try motivating for an unbarred external telephone line >at a third world university...... they are in great demand, but not >neccessarily for data comms purposes ;-) The reason for this is simple: >with some PTT's it can take several years after an application for a >telephone or dedicated line is made before the service is installed. >Also, what do you do if your dedicated line goes on the blink? Getting >it fixed can be a trying exercise. I still say it isn't a major issue because some aspects are easily resolved while other aspects cannot be resolved at all. Thus we can easily implement software that will make using atrocious phone networks merely more costly than using high quality networks, rather than so qualitatively different that it is a separate "major issue" for establishing email and news access. On the other hand we can't do much about the low telephone penetration and related problems like long delays providing telephone service so that isn't a major issue worth discussing either (unless you are claiming that it is an absolute bar to productive use of email and news in developing countries). >>Why on earth should a skilled sysadmin be required at every node? >>Once this problem is resolved, massive expansion both in developed >>countries and developing countries becomes quite straight forward. >>The equipment itself is already very cheap and all costs except >>network management are declining rapidly. >Because, as I tried to point out in an earlier note, email/networking is >a culture that develops in non-obvious ways. Plunking down maintenance >free (or remotely maintainable) hardware and software somewhere and then >getting it linked via a dedicated satellite link (or whatever) does not >guarantee it is going to be used. I agree, but I believe there are sufficient benefits that it WOULD be used if it was indeed useable by just "plunking down" cheap maintenance free or remotely maintainable hardware and software. On the other hand I am doubtful that there is a sufficient "critical mass" of potential users to overcome the additional difficulties caused by the absence of such cheap maintenance free or remotely maintainable hardware and software. In developed countries there are universities that can provide email and news access without such hardware and software and there are BBSes with volunteer sysops drawing on a substantial population of computer literate people and computer hobbyists. Developing countries lack that infrastructure so they especially need hardware and software that can just be "plunked down", which is not yet available. > How do you give potential users >access to the central email hub? Via a tcp/ip based local area network? >Dumb terminals into a multiport serial card? Who is going to maintain >these links and terminals? Similarly, who is going to provide user >training for the mail software? For a typical Un*x system the email >users will have to know their way around vi, and somebody is going to >have to register users and provide rudimentary system administration >support (backups etc). These are all ongoing problems, and if an >organisation doesn't have somebody on site that can deal with day to day >problems, email/networking just isn't going to be viable. These are the sort of issues that are currently dealt with by skilled sysadmins on site. They are of major importance and often overlooked. I totally agree with the importance you attach to them as I see them as the main problem. Yet word-processing is widespread on cheap personal computers without any more than telephone support and tutorial texts (and even without those). I believe it is technically feasible to provide email and news access in such a "transparent" and "user friendly" way that it appears to be merely an extension of ordinary wordprocessing that can be used by anybody with a computer. I also believe until that is done it will be very difficult to expand far beyond the present circles involved in developed countries or to get a real foothold in developing countries. >For email/networking to take off, you need the following ingredients: > >- some pre-existing computing environment with on-site skills to keep > things moving through minor crises, and to provide some form of > ongoing end-user training. You certainly do at present (and I think Sue underestimates the importance of the time that BBS sysops spend on this). But it isn't required for wordprocessing and it isn't required for using a telephone or a fax machine (although telephones used to be accompanied by "telephone operators"). I believe email and news will really "take off" only when that problem is solved, NOT by providing such an environment with on-site skills, but by eliminating the NEED for it, just as the need for telephone operators has been eliminated. >- a desire to communicate electronically (it helps considerably to have > an internal, isolated email system). Having one guy in the Philosophy > department who wants international email doesn't count... In one sense there is less demand for this in developing countries. But if one thinks instead of a desire to communicate in writing and have access to print media in the most efficient, cheap and fast way possible, then the potential demand in developing countries is enormous. Literacy is often far ahead of economic development generally and computer communications are becoming cheaper as well as faster than print media. TV is already quite widespread in developing countries and adding cheap computers to a basic TV set as a terminal is not that expensive. (The low telephone penetration is a much bigger problem so it is worth exploring the use of email and news software even without telephones - by diskette exchange etc). >- some easily implemented method of installing wide area networking > (such as uucp or TCP/IP using PCRoute over 9600 baud slip). As you note, potentially suitable methods are available. I maintain the biggest problem lies in WAN management rather than protocol implementation. >- some infrastructure capable of noticing and dealing with comms carrier > faults. Again, this relates to network management. >- support from internal management or administration for the concept of > WAN, for footing the bill or dealing with those who will be footing > it. Desirable, but PCs sneaked in behind the backs of unsupportive management and actively hostile MIS departments. If the PCs and telephones are in place, and modems are reasonably cheap, why couldn't email and news software as convenient as typical wordprocessors and spreadsheets infiltrate despite unsupportive management too? Again, there is a MUCH bigger problem if on-site technical support is needed since users can't easily just provide that themselves. Provide network access as a means of reducing fax bills or as an extension to wordprocessing that reduces postage bills, and watch it take off from there. The point is you can't do that at the moment because network access currently just isn't that simple. >Your scenario assumes that the developing world is clamouring to get >onto or into networking. Nope I just assume that since there is LESS demand in the developing world, it is MORE important there to remove barriers like the need for skilled sysadmins - especially since they are HARDER to provide in developing countries. -- Opinions disclaimed (Authoritative answer from opinion server) Header reply address wrong. Use cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au