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From: greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
Subject: Re: ACOS (WAS: Re: MD-BASIC (was:Re: Apple ][ BBS Software))
Message-ID: <1991Jun5.195804.23038@unlinfo.unl.edu>
Date: 5 Jun 91 19:58:04 GMT
References: <1991May31.040452.29892@agate.berkeley.edu> <1520028@hpcc01.HP.COM>
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drudman@hpcc01.HP.COM (Drew Rudman) writes:

>>"Time is money."
>>"I thought you said opium was money."
>>"Money is money!"
>>"Then what was time, again?"

>From Volunteers - great movie.

Yeah, I forgod (or would that be forgoed) the attribution since I couldn't
think of the characters' names in that dialog.  Certainly better than "Joe
vs. The Volcano".

>Anyways, back to the subject at hand.

Yeah, can't be doing too much drift...

>No one is claiming that either system
>is the end-all communications package for the Apple II.  Each has strong
>points as well as weak points.  As I see it:

>GBBS/ACOS/MACOS/METAL
>Benefits:

>Minimum system requirements.  GBBS will run an an Apple II+ with two 360K
> drives - try that with Pro-Line.

Minor correction, 2 140K drives.  35*16*256/1024=140.

>ProTerm emulation for full Apple IIE and GS character/sound support.  I don't
> know if this is available on Pro-Line,

It has some PSE, but it is incomplete.  Then again, ACOS/METAL currently
doesn't recognize that a ? in PSE mode is an _.  This may have changed.

>Drawbacks:
>No array support.  One of the missing commands.  This has been remedied in
> MACOS and METAL, two extensions to the original ACOS command language.

MACOS would be an extension to, METAL an extension OF.  If I can just
track down where ACOS tokenizes variables, I might be able to add in
primitive arrays.

>GBBS sucks out of the box.  I will never claim that GBBS (this is the actual
> program segments that a user sees and uses when he calls the BBS) is a
> robust BBS.  The message base is OK, but you seriously need to modify it
> to make it outstanding.  The thing is, ACOS (this is the operating
> system/language that GBBS runs on top of) makes it very easy to make
> outstanding modifications.

True.  It would be much better on the programming side if MSG.SEG was
split between the mail and bulletin functions, LOGON.SEG was split into
logging in routines, loading the user, and the new user application, and
it was overall cleaner code.  However, its size lends itself to
improvements very easily.

>Lousy Support.  I'm sorry, but Lance and L&L Productions have gotten a
> nasty reputation for being incredibly slow when responding to complaints.

It seems they want you to do the tracking down bugs to a reproducable form
before they will take any action, which is in turn slow.

>Cost:
>When I bought GBBS two years ago (version 1.3j) it cost me $125.  I don't
> know exactly how much the current version is, but I suspect it is not much
> more. The system requires nothing more (even Prodos, which is included on
> the distribution diskettes.)

I bought mine used, but I can't remember the price.  I know someone
interested in selling his copy, unopened, for $40.  MACOS isn't sold, just
illegally distributed.  METAL now lists at $85.  That price includes the
BBS source for Future Visions.  (METAL is the language, and name of the
product.)

>PRO-LINE
>Benefits: (disclaimer - I have not used the system extensively, this list
>                        is from the conversation that has occured so far.)

No disagreements there.

>Drawbacks:
>Minimum of a Hard Drived II system to run.  Requires 5 megs of storage just
> for the BBS and its data (not to mention any file xfers you may want to
> have.)

I was also told that file xfers were not ProLine's strong point, as well
as "mondo ProTERM Emulation".

>Relies on external products (Amperworks, etc.)

They are provided, but the programmer will have to learn how to use them,
making it more than just AppleSoft you need to know.

>Apple IIe users

...and those without the proper GS configuration...

> must use Applesoft to modify.  This (from my point of view as
> an experienced programmer) is the worst thing about Pro-Line.

>Cost:
>I believe it has been mentioned that Pro-Line could cost as low as $95 and
> as high as $195.  This is just for the BBS package.  MD-BASIC (for easy
> editing) and other add-ons cost more.

ProLine lists at $195, MD-BASIC at $50.  Even if you do wait to get
MD-BASIC, you are still paying the same amount, with the suffering of
using AppleSoft.

My main recommendation to Morgan Davis is to make an 8-bit version of
MD-BASIC, if at all possible, not requiring another application to make it
work.

>So, take your pick.  They both seem to have good things going for them, as
>well as bad things you'll have to deal with.

>[ Call...              9600bps/60meg ][ Drew Rudman                          ]
>[   Apple ][              IBM        ][ Internet: drudman@hpiosa.corp.hp.com ]
>[          (415) 321-4713            ][ The Charge BBS: Axe Slinger (#1)     ]

--
///   ____   \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are
| |/ /    \ \| |       several--one of the many major problems with governing
 \\_|\____/|_//            people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the
greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu    point, who gets people to let them do it to them."