Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!hplabs!hpfcso!hpfcdj!sjk
From: sjk@hpfcdj.HP.COM (Steve Kommrusch)
Newsgroups: sci.bio
Subject: Re: Animal planning
Message-ID: <17580002@hpfcdj.HP.COM>
Date: 28 May 91 18:26:53 GMT
References: <17580001@hpfcdj.HP.COM>
Organization: Hewlett Packard -- Fort Collins, CO
Lines: 51


In some previous response to this thread, Doug Yanega writes:
>	You might well argue that all of these cases [bees] are essentially
>instinctive, and I'd agree - but remember that being *ABLE* to plan
>anything is itself dependent on having a brain designed for just such
>a function - and that's all genetic. There is, technically speaking,
>no such thing as a behavior with no genetic component. Beware of the
>trap of conceiving of "instinct" and "learning" as black and white,
>when all you're really doing is arbitrarily dividing up a spectrum of
>shades of gray. Also remember that for the behaviors of animals in the
>wild, the primary evolutionary force will be natural selection - if an
>animal has no need to plan, it probably won't, and if it does need to
>plan, it probably will. Until we can read minds, we're not going to
>get far trying to compare *anything* to humans ;-)
>
>-------(please include "DY" in subj header of mail to this user)--------
>Doug "Speaker-To-Insects" Yanega      "UT!"       Bitnet: KUENTO@UKANVAX
>My card: 0 The Fool       (Snow Museum, Univ. of KS, Lawrence, KS 66045)
>"Ev-ry-bo-dy loves the Michigan RAAAAaaaaag!" - The Singing Frog
>----------

Doug brings up a good point that I've seen come up often in discussions
on animal behavior.  Drawing a line between instinct and learned behavior
is very difficult to do in the wild.  Indeed, identifying which of our own
(human) behaviors are culturally learned as opposed to genetic is a
topic of great debate.  This is why I tried to come up with examples
that were fairly black-and-white.

I received some mail in reply to my query which described another occurance of
planning in chimps.  This example does seem to show rather clearly
non-instinctive non-immediate planning tendencies.  The author, however,
could not site a reference; has anyone else heard of the following example:

>I've heard about a chimp at a zoo that was awake when the keepers put
>oranges (or some other fruit) in the pen (it was a large outdoor setup
>that mimiced the natural habitat).  The chimp buried the oranges.  The
>other chimps knew that they got oranges daily, and when they woke up, they
>started looking for them.  The chimp that hid them pretended to look for
>them.  Then, when they were asleep again, the chimp dug a couple up and
>ate them.  I think I heard this in an Evolution and Human Behavior course,
>but I cannot give you any references.  The deception involved is particularly
>interesting.

Alos, I'm still sort of curious about whether netters think my "chimp in a
hailstorm" experiment would result in the chimp learning to plan ahead
and build the shelter early...


		Thanks,

		    Steve