Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!aero-c!nadel From: gannon@MDI.COM (Alden Gannon) Newsgroups: soc.feminism Subject: Re: Sexism vs. Men's Oppression Message-ID: <1991May29.182720.349@MDI.COM> Date: 29 May 91 18:27:20 GMT References: <14905.2833d44d@zeus.unomaha.edu> <1991May21.221824.5781@MDI.COM> <15266.283c2ad5@zeus.unomaha.edu> Sender: news@MDI.COM Organization: Motorola, Mobile Data Division - Seattle, WA Lines: 104 Approved: nadel@aerospace.aero.org Originator: nadel@aerospace.aero.org In article <15266.283c2ad5@zeus.unomaha.edu> oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu (Sharon L. O'Neil) writes: >In article <1991May21.221824.5781@MDI.COM>, gannon@MDI.COM (Alden Gannon) writes: [I present 2 quotes that I attribute to Sharon and challenge as contradictory] > Now, maybe I did say the first quote. If I did, I need to know > the context in which I did say it. I went back and looked at the > last post I made to this newsgroup, which included the first post > as a third generation quote but it's not clear who said it. If I > /did/ say it, I need to know the context in which I said it. Whoops! I guess I don't really know if Sharon said the first quote. My apologies. > Well, I do believe that men are oppressed and that oppression is > a result of the oppression of women. But I think that men will stop > being oppressed when they stop oppressing women. I don't think I've > ever oppressed a man. If he's felt oppressed -- I think it is more > the result of society's oppression of me as a woman than it is > because I, personally, have oppressed him. Based on my experiences, and those of many other men, men do not feel oppressed by women per se. In fact, oppression is prehaps too strong a term. Men feel *disadvantaged* in at least the following areas in society: 1. The draft (this one is more like oppression). 2. Parental choice (Women have it, men don't). 3. Alimony, child support, and custody. 4. Rape and domestic abuse law. 5. Affirmative Action for only women and minorities. 6. Hate crimes against gay men (this one *is* oppression). I challenge Sharon to produce a list of ways women feel oppressed and show how alleviating that oppression will also address the above six points. As for being the *cause* of these inequalities, consider the "liberal" Afrikaaners that say they are not the cause of the systematic oppression of Blacks. Sharon lives in this country and enjoys many of its benefits. By not actively standing out against these inequalities, Sharon tacitly supports them. Indeed, without supporters of the status quo, the opposition would easily rectify the imbalance, but this country's policies are dictated by the will of voting constituencies (*not* men) consisting of a majority of women. Any time you vote for someone who favors free choice for women and *no* choice for men, you are contributing to the oppression of men, whether you are a man or a woman. > Case in point: if a man > feels oppressed because social convention dictates that he hold the > door open for me, then it is the sexist social convention which > is oppressing him. Not me. I don't insist that any man hold the > door open for me. (I used to be upset when a man held the door open > for me, but if he chooses to oppress himself through social convention, > then that's his choice.) It sounds like *you* were oppressed by your anger. Perhaps he was rewarded by his act of charity (that you didn't want) with warm feelings. When I hold a door open for someone, I consider it a common courtesy that I would like returned if *I* was carrying an armload of groceries. Being courteous is not being oppressed. > I don't remember the context of the first quote, but I think that > it is reconcilable with the second. The first says that women need to > be concerned with their own empowerment first and men's empowerment > second. That's not saying that men are inferior or less worthy of > consideration. Men /do/ hold the power in this society and therefore > women do have to be concerned with gaining equality first. If men > /feel/ oppressed by feminism, that is because men are unwilling to > give up their unfair share of power. I think that the whole Controversy> was invented by men who feel intimidated by women who are > truly outspoken and empowered. Some men have realized that the > accusation of discrimination can indeed be powerful and have begun to > use this very powerful rhetoric in order to silence women and > effectively keep them in their place. If men hold the power, where did I get my six points? Why is it in the interests of men to create AA, or sexist abuse laws? Men do *not* hold sovereignty (in the Rouseauian sense). It is held by powerful voting constituencies; one of which is NOW. On the subject of the , Sharon must be speaking of a different issue than I do when discussing this topic. The main thrust of the anti-PC argument is that PC people and institutions (most notably academic ones) strive to *silence* opposing viewpoints. I, being a member of that camp, encourage empowerment and outspokeness of any minority view, and in this forum, that includes Sharon's. > I personally would idealistically call myself a humanist, but I > realize that for humanistic principles to take over -- where > men and women are equal -- there has to be more take on the part > of women and more give on the part of men because I believe women > have been doing a lot more giving and men having been doing a lot > more taking. If men did more giving, they would be more emotional > and nurturing, and then they would enjoy what Steinem was talking > about in the second quote. It's hard to debate this academically, because Sharon doesn't provide an example of just what is being taken and given. However, Sharon does seem to equate emotional and nurturing with good. There is no reason to catagorically assume this. Hitler was an emotional man. Being nurturing isn't necessarily good, either. A species that protects its weak members to the unneeded danger of its strong members will inevitably face extinction. Is extinction a good? -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alden B. Gannon, a.k.a. Zarathustra. INTERNET: gannon%mdi.com@uunet.uu.net "Gotta find a woman be good to me, USENET: ..uunet!mdi.com!gannon Won't hide my liquor, try to serve me tea." --Grateful Dead.