Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!orion.oac.uci.edu!ucivax!gateway From: gannon@MDI.COM (Alden Gannon) Newsgroups: soc.feminism Subject: Re: Sexism/Men's Oppression LONG!!! Message-ID: <1991Jun4.204339.19149@MDI.COM> Date: 4 Jun 91 21:25:34 GMT References: <15266.283c2ad5@zeus.unomaha.edu> <1991May29.182720.349@MDI.COM> <15713.28498dc4@zeus.unomaha.edu> Organization: Motorola, Mobile Data Division - Seattle, WA Lines: 136 Approved: tittle@ics.uci.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: glacier.ics.uci.edu In article <15713.28498dc4@zeus.unomaha.edu> oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu (Truth or Dare?) writes: >In article <1991May29.182720.349@MDI.COM>, gannon@MDI.COM (Alden Gannon) writes: [Sharon comes up with a perfectly reasonable opinion of the draft. No refutation.] >PARENTAL CHOICE: Alden says "Women have it, men don't." I'd maintain Again, Sharon seems perfectly reasonable in this passage. I invite readers to refer to my other posts on this thread for clarification of my viewpoint, which is far less radical than the viewpoints Sharon cites. >ALIMONY/CHILD SUPPORT/CHILD CUSTODY: In my opinion, alimony is almost >obsolete. I don't really believe in alimony -- except in the most >extreme of cases. I found no area of disagreement here. I'm beginning to wonder if Sharon is an opponent or ally :-) >Child support is very different from alimony. Child support is >supposed to support ONLY the child. Now, if this is a parental choice >issue, then it's more complicated. If one parent (m/f) wishes to >raise the child I do think that the other parent (m/f) should >absolutely contribute financially to the child's support if that >non-custodial parent wishes to have contact with that child. If (for >example) the father wants the woman to have an abortion and she wishes >to carry through the pregnancy, he should not be compelled to pay >child support -- but he shouldn't expect visitation. Hear hear! Refer to my article proposing how such as system can be implemented. [Rest of child support passage deleted. Reread it at your pleasure.] >Custody cases are often decided in favor of the woman and I think this >is unfair... Hooray! [Passage on rape deleted. Full agreement.] >Perhaps we should stop >publicizing the names of suspected rapists and victims -- some have >suggested that the victim's name must be publicized since the >suspected rapist's is being publicized. Publicizing rape victims' names is abhorrent, and will only serve to keep victims from reporting. On the other hand, the accused will suffer from the same social stigma if falsely accused. The alleged rapist should have publicity protection as well until the verdict is rendered. >Would this be a satisfactory solution? In a word, yes. >Domestic abuse (with or without rape) /usually/ happens to women -- >but it can happen to men. Whoops, a little bone to pick here. Prepare for a flame from the militants on the net. I would refer you to a good study on domestic abuse that concluded that men are abused by women just as much as women abused by men to the same degree (I'm sure the source cite will be forthcoming. It's from a book). Male victims of abuse are far more reluctant to report, have little chance in court, and are victims of social stigma (as are rape victims). >But >one has to wonder: if men and women and blacks and whites truly are >equal, then why are white men the ones to occupy the best jobs. Are >these people truly the most intelligent, the most ambitious, the ones >with the most drive? Or did they start out with an advantage? I tend to accept the argument that white men benefit from a society that tends to give us advantages. The judicial system, educational system, and virtually every other institution in this country was created without any input from women and minorities (recall that these institutions are much older than women's suffrage), and the gender roles of which Janet spoke have served to enforce these inequalities when the legal enforcement crumbled. However, I believe AA (in its present form) is a poor attempt at rectifying the imbalance. It is treating the symptom, rather than the disease. We should direct our energies to scrutinizing the institutions that cause these inequalities (such as our education system), and giving women and minorities proportional executive power over them. AA is feeding people, not teaching them to fish. [Sharon draws an interesting parallel between gay bashing and sexism] Maybe so. >It's very hard -- because there's a lot to keep in mind. I /do/ try >to be as consistent as I can be. And I don't feel I'm a hypocrite >because I do try to be as honest as I can be. Indeed, it *is* very hard, and my pathetic mind is too small to contain it all. Perhaps we should share the burden of reminding each other of our own inconsistencies. [Passage on voting with which I agree.] [Sharon suggests that power is shared among the many PACs and lobbying groups. Astute. I agree.] >Alden -- I do think you misunderstand me with regard to PC. Yes, it appears I did misunderstand. I concur with you assessment. >I've seen depts. refuse to hire >people because of their non-traditional viewpoints and I think that >just weakens the conservative viewpoint because CHALLENGE is what >provides intellectual rigor. Don't you agree? Whole heartedly. >Thank you. And I hope you understand I would extend that to anyone >who wishes to SERIOUSLY disagree/discuss these matters with me. >Sometimes I get letters from people who resort to insulting me -- and >I don't feel I have to respond to them because they're not giving me >the respect I would extend to an intelligent adversary. Insults are the refuge of weak minds. You do well to ignore them. However, you have disappointed me, Sharon. We seem to be running out of issues on which we disagree. I may have no more reason to answer your posts. :-) >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Sharon Lindsey O'Neil "I could be happy/I could be quite naive/ > Bitnet: oneil@unomai1 It's only me and my shadow/Happy in our > Internet: oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu make believe/Soon." -- Tears for Fears >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alden B. Gannon, the Chaste. INTERNET: gannon%mdi.com@uunet.uu.net "Become who you are!" - F. Nietzsche. USENET: ..uunet!mdi.com!gannon