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From: oneil@zeus.unomaha.edu (Truth or Dare?)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Sexism vs. Men's Oppression
Message-ID: <15725.284ba405@zeus.unomaha.edu>
Date: 4 Jun 91 20:30:29 GMT
References: <1991May21.221824.5781@MDI.COM> <15266.283c2ad5@zeus.unomaha.edu> <1991May29.182720.349@MDI.COM> <1991Jun1.034124.8157@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
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In article <1991Jun1.034124.8157@beaver.cs.washington.edu>, jcarson@june.cs.washington.edu (Janet L. Carson) writes:

[Janet Carson writes in response to Alden's sixth point about men's
disadvantage in society -- that gay men are harassed.]

> Lesbians are also harassed in society.  This is an example of society,
> if not the government, violently enforcing gender-roles.  By working
> to loosen gender-based restrictions and permit a greater variety of
> behaviors by men and women, feminists, gay rights groups, etc. are
> trying to combat hate crimes.

	I'd also point out that I think that gay men get a lot more acceptance
	in this society than lesbians do.  This is probably because as a group,
	gay men are typically affluent, whereas lesbians are not.  Gay men are
	in a better position to "publicize" themselves in a positive light.
	Let's take television for an example, since television seems to 
	influence -- if not /mold/ -- the opinions of many Americans.  It's 
	quite the fashionable thing on television to have a gay male character.
	Even soap operas (As the World Turns) have had positive gay male
	characters.  But how many lesbian characters are there on television?
	Northern Exposure has had a gay male couple on the show, but has only
	mentioned lesbians.  CJ on L.A. Law is the only recurring bisexual
	female character.  L.A. Law's writers didn't feel comfortable making
	C.J. a lesbian.  (Although male and female bisexuals are probably among
	the most discriminated against in the Gay World, especially if they
	are out.)  It seems pretty obvious to me that the US public is not 
	comfortable with gays but that it is a lot more comfortable with gay
	males than lesbians.  

>> Alden writes: If men hold the power, where did I get my six points?
> 
> While I *do* believe that men hold power (because society-enforced
> gender-roles have kept women from this power), I *don't* believe that
> the gender-roles which underlie your 6 points were created solely by
> men.

	I agree.  I believe that men hold the power for the same reason
	that Janet does.  However, this doesn't mean that ALL THE MEN hold
	all the power over ALL THE WOMEN.  Let's not speak in absolutes here.

> Similarly for certain men's movements changing notions of
> masculinity allowing women to escape from roles they were forced into
> because men weren't allowed into certain territories.

	Do we have any men from the more progressive men's movements around
	here on soc.women?  I'd be interested in hearing from these men --
	how do progressive men feel about these "six points" of Alden's?
	Are there men who feel that they have actually benefitted from 
	feminism?

-- 
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  Bitnet: oneil@unomai1		   It's only me and my shadow/Happy in our
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