Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: James.Quilty@comp.vuw.ac.nz Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: The Sabbath ! Message-ID: Date: 2 Jun 91 04:30:41 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 312 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu Since I dislike taking only one translation of the Bible, and hate verses that are quoted out of context, my quotes will be on the largish side (when necessary), and I will use three translations of the Bible, abbreviated as follows: Key: KJV = King James Version NIV = New International Version TEV = Good News Bible (Today's English Version) In his article of May 22nd, Rey Paulo writes: > But my question is by keeping Sunday as a > replacement of Saturday, is the LORD glorified or happy about it? > We only have to conjecture here anyway, but experiences of Israel > are somewhat certain that HE is not. We have the New Testament writings to show us that any day (or no day !) can be kept as the sabbath and God is quite happy about it ! examples: Romans 14: 1-10 (verses 5 & 6 are the sabbath references, but the whole chapter should be read !) KJV: "Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful 2 disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who 3 is weak eateth herbs.Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him that eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath 4 received him. Who art thou that judgest another man's servant ? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day 6 alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he 7 eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and 8 no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord; whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died and rose, and revived, that he might be 10 Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother ? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother ? for we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ." verses 5 & 6 from NIV & TEV: NIV: " One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each man should be fully convinced in his own 6 mind. He who regards one day special does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God." TEV: " One person thinks that a certain day is more important than other days, while someone else thinks that all days are the same. Each one should 6 firmly make up his own mind. Whoever thinks highly of a certain day does so in honour of the Lord; whoever will eat anything does so in honour of the Lord, because he gives thanks to God for the food. Whoever refuses to eat certain things does so in honour of the Lord, and he gives thanks to God." The standard SDA rebuttal of these verses is to say that Paul was not referring to the sabbath in these verses. That is not supported by the scripture, for we know that Paul was referring to the two groups of Christians: Those from a Jewish background who wanted to keep the food laws, sabbath and feast days, and those from a Gentile background who felt no need to keep these things in their faith in Jesus. Paul says that it does not really matter which day (if any) you choose as holy, nor whether you keep the food laws (clean/unclean AND food offered to idols/not killed in the 'right' way) - Just that each person should make up their own minds. Also note that these matters will not affect salvation, for God accepts us, and makes us succeed (verse 4). The attitude of those whose faith is strong is mentioned: Rom. 14: 14 TEV: " My union with the Lord Jesus makes me certain that no food is of itself ritually unclean; but if a person believes that some food is unclean, then it becomes unclean for him." KJV: " I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean." NIV: " As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean." Example: Colossians 2:16 & 17 (read the entire letter, too.) Prologue: (From the TEV introduction to the letter) " ... Paul had learnt that there were false teachers in the church at Colossae who insisted that in order to know God and have full salvation one must worship certain 'spiritual rulers and authorities.' In addition, these teachers said, one must submit to special rites such as circumcision and must observe strict rules about foods and other matters. ..." NIV: " Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival , a New Moon celebration, or a Sabbath 17 day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." KJV: " Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." TEV: " So let no one make rules about what you eat or drink or about holy days 17 or the New Moon Festival or the Sabbath. All such things are only a shadow of things in the future; the reality is Christ." Once again, the standard SDA rebuttal of these verses is to sa that they could not possibly refer to the sabbath, all without scriptural basis (but with the basis of the teachings of Ellen White). The SDA rebuttals also make use of the specific punctuation and register of the KJV, so it is important to note the renderings of the other translations. I have posted a reply to an SDA analysis of these verses at the same time I post this (and am reluctant to duplicate the material here :-) Reading the verses in context of the people to whom Paul was writing (whose doctrines in structure and form are like the SDA church's: An extra-scriptural source of authority teaching that to be saved certain rules must be observed...) it shows again (like Romans 14) that sabbaths and food laws are not important, and Christians should not listen to those who require them to be kept. Other examples of condemnation of enforced legalism (food laws, sabbaths, etc.) may be found in: Galatians 4:10-11 (once again, DEFINITELY read this letter !!! The context of these verses does not change their thrust, but is terribly relevant !) TEV: " You pay special attention to certain days, months, seasons and years. 11 I am worried about you ! Can it be that all my work for you has been for nothing ?" NIV: " You are observing special days and months and seasons and years ! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you." KJV: " Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain." (We know that the Galatians were keeping laws [food, sabbaths, etc.] because they believed that it was necessary for salvation. Paul says that's not true in the entire letter [I'm not prepared to type it all out !! :-) ]. Sabbath-keeping is not necessary, in fact, it severs you from Christ if you keep the sabbath to be saved ! [the famous: Galatians 5:1-5] ) and 1 Timothy 4:1-5 (do, please, read the letter, too !) KJV: " Now the spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of 2 devils; Speaking lies in hipocrisy; having their conscience seared with 3 a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which 4 believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." NIV: " The spirit clearly says that in the latter times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hipocritical liars, whose consciences have 3 been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it 5 is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer." TEV: " The spirit says clearly that some people will abandon the faith in the later times; they will obey lying spirits and follow the teachings of 2 demons. Such teachings are spread by deceitful liars, whose consciences are dead, as if burnt with a hot iron. Such people teach that it is wrong 3 to marry and to eat certain foods. But God created those foods to be eaten, after a prayer of thanks, by those who are believers and have 4 come to know the truth. Everything that God has created is good; nothing is to be rejected, but everything is to be received with a prayer of 5 thanks, because the word of God and the prayer make it acceptable to God." NOTE: I'm not suggesting here that SDA's teach that it is wrong to marry, nor that they are "deceitful", etc. I will say that I personaly think that much of their doctrine comes not from God, but from Ellen White (their prophet). The point to the above two quotations is merely to show that the teachings of strict sabbath-keeping on a certain day, and observance of food laws are not supported by the New Testament. They are by the Old Testament, of course, but Christians are not bound by the Old Testament, any of it ! Which brings me to my next point: > The 2 greatest commandments as above would cause anyone believing in these > 2 commandments to keep the 10 commandments. I can't find any New Testament reading to support your assertion, in fact, I found verses that contradict your assertion: Romans 13: 8-10 KJV: " Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth 9 another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy 10 neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." NIV: " Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellow man has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbour as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." TEV: " Be under obligation to no one - the only obligation you have is to love 9 one another. Whoever does this has obeyed the Law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery; do not commit murder; do not steal; do not desire what belongs to someone else" - all these, and any others besides are summed up in the one command, Love your neighbour as you 10 love yourself." If you love someone, you will never do him wrong; to love, then, is to obey the whole Law. NOTE: verse 10 MUST be put in context with verse 8 ! What is said here (I explain that which is already obvious) is that: "If you love someone, THEN you HAVE DONE what the law requires" rather than (as your assertion would have it) "If you love someone, THEN you DO what the law requires" A favourite SDA trick to show that love MEANS "keep the commandments" is to quote John 14 verse 15 (which on its own is out of context) To put it in context, John 14 and John 15 must be read - they are part of the same conversation ! The oft-quoted verse is (John 14:15): TEV: "If you love me, you will obey my commandments." KJV: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." NIV: "If you love me you will obey what I command." NOTE: Also ref. John 15:10 which says the same (slightly differently) The verses in John 15 put this into context: John 15:12-14 and John 15:17 TEV: 12 "My commandment is this: love one another as I love you. The greatest love a person can have for his friends is to give his life for them. 14 And you are my friends if you do what I command you." 17 "This, then, is what I command you: love one another." KJV: 12 "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for 14 his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." 17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another." NIV: 12 "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command." 17 "This is my command: Love each other." As may be seen from the above verses, far from commanding us to keep the Ten Commandments, Jesus commands us to love one another, and as the Romans reference says, if you do this, you HAVE fulfilled the law, not that you MUST THEN fulfill the law ! Perhaps someone could come up with a New Testament quote saying that we must keep the Law ? (Before you post, make sure that your assertion is consistent with Galatians and Romans (the whole letters !) - for they assert that we are not bound in any way by any law ! - but then, that's just what Jesus died on the cross for, isn't it ??!!) I can only conclude at this moment that the assertion you make is Ellen White based rather than scripture based, for I know that Ellen White taught such things (I have a collection of her writings and SDA teaching books at home, and I have read such assertions many times from them). > What I want to do is to share with you the idea that keeping Sunday in > place of the Sabbath is not, I believe, correct. I believe (as a matter of logic and my studies of SDA doctrine) that if there is a 'correct' day, then those that do not keep it are not really following God. Those that do not follow God properly out of ignorance might be spared (under SDA doctrine) but those who hear the 'sabbath message' and reject it (decide that you don't need to keep sabbaths, food laws, etc !) are condemned by God and lose salvation ! As Ellen G White wrote: "Those who desire the seal of God in their forehead must keep the sabbath of the fourth commandment." (I can't remember the exact book that this one comes from, but I can find out if anyone really wants to check it out !) and: "But not one is made to suffer the wrath of God [visited upon those who shall refuse to keep the Creator's rest day] until the truth has been brought home to his mind and rejected. There are many who have never had an opportunity to hear the special truths for this time. The obligation of the fourth commandment has never been set before him in its true light." ("The Great Controversy" p.605) Hardly consistent with salvation by faith alone (which the SDA church agrees with, while still holding doctrine derived directly from the above quotes !). That's the whole point, really, the SDA sabbath doctrine is inconsistent with the Bible, and salvation by faith alone, and is derived from Ellen White's writings, rather than from a study of the Bible. Jim. P.S. Consider this: Ephesians 2:15 (talking about the relationship in Christianity between those of Jewish & Gentile background) TEV: "He [Jesus] abolished the Jewish Law with its commandments and rules, in order to create out of the two races one new people in union with himself, in this way making peace."