Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: drew@anucsd.anu.edu.au (Drew Corrigan) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Day Jesus Christ Died Message-ID: Date: 3 Jun 91 04:28:05 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Lines: 117 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu James Quilty raised the following points in relation to my posting: >This is not what the Bible says, the Bible says that the time came when >the Passover lamb was to be killed - and the surrounding verses are quite >explicit that the meal that Jesus ate WAS the passover - the NORMAL one! This matter is not as straightforward as we would both like. The problem is that John clearly places the day of the crucifixion as being on the 14th of Nisan; the day of "the preparation for the Passover" (John 19:14). He also tells us that the same day was the "preparation" for a High Sabbath (John 19:31,42). We are also told that the Jews had not yet eaten the Passover (John 18:28). Commentators over the years have endevoured to reconcile John's account with that of the Synoptists. The Synoptists are in agreement that the day Jesus died was the preparation of the Sabbath (Matt 27:62; Luke 23:54; Mark 15:42- 43). Jesus was laid in the tomb as the Sabbath was drawing on (Luke 23:54). The real question is which Sabbath is meant. If Friday is meant, then Jesus did not keep his prophesy of fulfilling the sign of Jonah which was to be in the "heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights" (Matt 12:40). The traditional Friday night - Sunday morning scenario yields only 2 nights and 1 day. A Thursday crucifixion as you propose yields only 3 nights and 2 days. You counted Thursday afternoon as 'one day', but Jesus wasn't laid in the tomb until very late in the afternoon as the Sabbath was drawing on (Luke 23:54), or as Matthew says, towards the evening (Matt 27:57). 3pm to sunset cannot in seriously be counted as 'one day' during which Jesus was in the heart of the earth, simply because he wasn't in the heart of the earth. The other problem of having Jesus actually crucified on the first Holy Day of the Days of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15) is a very serious one which it seems comparatively few have given much thought towards. It reflects a strongly dismissive attitude towards the importance of these annual Holy Days in the lives of the people at the time. It also dismisses further internal evidence of the Gospel writers. The Pharisees sought to have Jesus killed but *not* on the Feast day (Nisan 15), lest there be an uproar among the people (Matt 26:5, Mark 14:2). When Simon was compelled to carry Jesus' cross it is noted that he was coming in from the fields (Mark 15:21, Luke 23:26), strongly suggesting that he had been working there. Work was not permitted on the annual Holy Days, or High Sabbaths as they were called. >IF Jesus ate a special meal, would it not have been mentioned ???!!! John does seem to offer support for this by terming it 'the supper' (John 13:2), and saying that this was before the Feast of the Passover (v1). Paul offers support by terming it the "Lord's Supper" (1 Cor 11:20). >NOTE: The particular phrasing of "Friday" here is unique to the TEV - other > Bibles state "the day of preparation". This is consistent with a > Thursday death of Jesus, but not of a death on a Wednesday (or any > other day) Because Jesus' body was not removed from the cross and > prepared until the evening - which by Jewish reconing is the NEXT > DAY !!!!! > We can see that when the body was to be removed from the cross, it was >EVENING ! [Just a point: I find myself in disagreement with the kind of paraphrasing offered by the TEV translators. Putting in 'Friday' for 'day of preparation' indicates a heavy doctrinal bias which doesn't aid clear understanding.] I feel you have mis-read the scriptures you quoted on this point. I expect that nearly all commentators would agree that Jesus was buried in haste on the 'day of preparation' because the (or a) Sabbath was about to begin, and the burial was completed as the (or a) Sabbath was beginning. If Jesus died on Thursday, why the hurry to bury him before sunset? They could have left him overnight on the cross and taken him down Friday morning. Luke explicitly states 'and the Sabbath was drawing on' (Luke 23:54) as the men finished burying Jesus. >Point 2: As you should know, people could become ritually unclean > DURING the Passover meal and be ineligible to eat - the most > common way of this happening was the touching of a dead body > DURING the Passover day ! ... As you also should know, > ritual uncleanliness lasted "until the evening" so, if the Priests > were to become "unclean" on the day BEFORE the Passover as you > assert, by the time of the Passover they would be "clean" > again and able to participate !!! A person could only be invalidated > from Passover celebration on the actual day of the Passover ! The > John verse actually say that they wanted to keep "themselves > ritually clean in order to be able to eat the Passove meal." - all > this says is that the Priests had not eaten the Passover meal, but > intended to THAT DAY ! I think we are agreed that the Jewish authorities wanted to prevent themselves from becoming defiled in order that they might eat the Passover. However, the position that 'defilement ended at sunset' doesn't necessarily follow. A stricter, more extensive period might have been in practise. I will look this up if I remember. >Point 3: The most probable reason that the Priests had not eaten their > Passover meal was that they were busy being Priests !!!! (They > used to do that, you know ! :-) the sabbath was the busiest day >for them !!!) The Passover meal *had* to be eaten in the evening. Not later on during the day when people felt like it. All the lambs were killed prior to sunset. So to say Jesus was killed on Nisan 15, and the priests were too busy to eat at the beginning is not possible. Being busy is not an issue because everyone would have retired to their homes. The only reason the authorities hadn't eaten is because Passover evening had not yet arrived. Again, I point out that John terms the day of the crucifixion, 'the preparation for the Passover' (John 19:14). A Friday crucifixion doesn't allow Jesus to fulfill his sign. A Thursday crucifixion doesn't either. However, a Wednesday crucifixion on Nisan 14, followed by Thursday, a Holy Day, followed by Friday a working day (during which the women bought and prepared spices), followed by the weekly Sabbath, with Jesus' resurrection at the conclusion of it, and his appearance to the women next morning, is consistent with the available information, and permits the fulfilling of the sign of Jonah. Drew - who has had enough of this topic!