Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: krueger@writeon.physics.arizona.edu (Theodore Krueger) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Just War Theory Message-ID: Date: 5 Jun 91 04:09:56 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Arizona, Telecommunications, Tucson AZ Lines: 85 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article Don Hosek writes: >You ask for Biblical quotations to support my perspective, >here are a few: >John 18,10-11 (TEV): Simon Peter, who had a sword drew it and >struck the High Priest's slave, cutting off his right ear. THe etc. I believe that Jesus is telling Peter not to stop the people who want to take him away to be crucified (much as Jesus to Peter "get thee behind me Satan" when Peter earlier tried to talk him out of the crucifiction). >Better yet, since you bring up the mark of the beast, name >one place in Revelations. That wasn't me. You must have me confused with someone else. >How about coming up with quotations to indicate your apparent >perspective that under persecution, God's people should seek to >kill their oppressors? Again, you misunderstand me. I am not claiming that any _individual_ christian should react in a _killing_ manner under any circumstances. I am simply claiming that there _are_ circumstances when some people are being threatened by an agressor that it is not unchristian to defend the people being threatened. >Non-violence doesn't mean giving in to evil. It means speaking >out against it. You seem to imply that killing is evil. Are you aware that there is more than one concept of killing in the Bible? Here are two: Murder -- bad (10 commandments -- Thou Shalt Not Murder) Self Defense -- justified (Levitical setting up of cities of sanctuary) There are also many examples where God considers the motivations of the heart. >Are these people being murdered so that cars and highways can be >manufactured. Again your use of the word murder. Just because one person dies at the hands of another does not imply murder. If it does, of what use is the word kill since murder covers all. >How about scriptural evidence that he *doesn't*? Numerous examples of God telling the Hebrews to _kill_ witches, people who worship other gods, tribes who lived in the promised land, including phrases such as "don't leave any of them alive" (paraphrased, I don't have my Bible at work. I'm talking about the time when a member of the army kept some of the loot when God had told them to destroy it all). Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we should act this way today. I'm just giving evidence against the pacifistic nature that you have implied upon God. Perhaps there is another underlying theme to this all, perhaps clarifying my opinion on this theme will help you to understand my overall viewpoints and motivations. I believe that loving people does _not_ mean letting them do whatever they want (read that as a personal condemnation of extra-marital sex, drugs, etc.). Loving people means desiring for all people to do what is best for them. A next step from this is involvement in other people's lives, not separating ourselves, for example from all of the people in Kuwait who were being threatened by Hussein. IMHO we were not in the Persian Gulf solely for oil. I believe that Hussein would have purposefully killed multiplied times the number of innocents who were accidentally killed by our actions, and that our actions saved many innocent lives. Final question, is it a christian action to allow innocents to die by our inaction? And if not, what is the christian thing to do if some will be killed, but more will be saved by violent action? -- Be Excellent To Each Other