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From: dogen@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (John Chq)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: If you meet the Buddha...
Summary: Tathagata and the world
Message-ID: <1991Jun5.223752.23664@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: 5 Jun 91 22:37:52 GMT
References: <1991Jun5.164825.15440@nas.nasa.gov>
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In response to "if you meet the Buddha..." T. S. writes,
>
>To me, one key to this is in the Vajracchedika Sutra, in which Gautama Buddha
>is quoted: "The Tathagata does not cling to the idea of an ego, a person,
>a being, and a soul...We say there is the Tathagata, but in reality there
>is no such thing to be known as the Tathagata.  Therefore, this is truly
>the Tathagata."  [or something very close to that - I'm quoting from memory]
>As I understand it, the literal translation of Tathagata, another name for
>Buddha, is "Suchness Gate", from "tathata" (meaning "suchness") and "gata"
>(meaning "gate").  There are similar passages in other sutras.
>
>It means that we should not cling to the idea of some being or thing to be
>known as Buddha.  If you have a thought, "This or that person or thing or
>state is Buddha", you should discard (kill) the thought immediately.  The
>Gate of Suchness consists of non-attachment to ideas.
>
I certainly agree with your interpretation.  Just a couple of points; the
word tatha means thus, such, as such.  The word for thusness or suchness
when refering to Reality is tatha plus an extra ta (long a); Tathata.
Gata means gone, or arrived.  Hence, the literal translation of tathagata
is 'the thus-gone', 'thus arrived', or he who has gone thus.  All this
refers to the person who has gone from samsara to nirvana, in the Theravada
sense, or the one who has gone from a state of attachment to concepts to
non-attachment, as you stated above. 
I was wondering who or what tradition gave that particular analysis of the
word "tatha-gata". Many times when doctrines get transplanted terms take on
a different shade of meaning, especially when Indian Buddhist concepts were
introduced to China.
But going back to the basic issue of "...kill the Buddha...", I think the
zennists have always tried to send "shockwaves"to their co-religionists in
an attempt to shake them from attachments to doctrine.  I'm glad you are
quoting from other sutras because this shows that zen also has roots,
despite their claim of transmission beyond words and letters. 
If I may add another doctrinal connection:  In chapter 22 of Nagarjuna's
Mula-madhyamika-karikas, he too takes up the issue of the Tathagata.  In
this treatise Naga systematically deconstructs all conceptual foundations
that can lead to a mistaken view of what a Buddha is (a mistaken view is
any IDEA or CONCEPT about the Buddha or Reality, as opposed to insight).
His conclusion is that the true state of the Tathagata is the state of the
world.  I.e., the Tathagata is not some "Higher Being" or "Holy Other"
above and beyond this world. Any and all phenomena in their co-dependent
arising and emptiness IS the Tathagata, and vice-versa.  Sounds much like
Dogen's assertion that pebbles and trees are the Buddha-nature.

							J. C.

-- 
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-- John Cha
"The present is always more interesting than the future or the past"
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