Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!pacbell.com!ames!ucsd!nosc!humu!pegasus!tleylan
From: tleylan@pegasus.com (Tom Leylan)
Newsgroups: comp.databases
Subject: Re: The Cult of Clipper (was: Re: PC Magazine skipped Clipper...)
Message-ID: <1991Jun10.021431.134@pegasus.com>
Date: 10 Jun 91 02:14:31 GMT
References: <1991May29.203231.26012@dbase.A-T.COM> <1991Jun5.112441.4573@pegasus.com> <1991Jun7.220945.18253@dbase.A-T.COM>
Organization: Pegasus,  Honolulu
Lines: 81

In article <1991Jun7.220945.18253@dbase.A-T.COM> tomr@dbase.A-T.COM (Tom Rombouts) writes:
>
>1.  Language features, to the actual user, are only as good as
>their implementation.

I didn't realize that I had a vote whether C should have pointers or not, if
they aren't implemented to my liking then it's a lousy feature ?  So does a
tree falling in the forest only make noise if Tom Rombouts hears it ?

You don't seem able to separate computer science from personal belief that's
what gave us the crap known as dBASE today.

>2.  Clipper has moved away from the dBASE/xBASE "standard" and
>is a product for advanced users.

dBASE is no more a standard than Coca-Cola, it's "common", it's "popular"
but it isn't a "standard" unless you're willing accept that not being able
to read at age 16 is "standard"... it happens to be common.  Standards are
usually agreed upon, dBASE fell into it and others followed but you go on
kidding yourself that it got there by virtue of being the best.
>
>Regarding specific personalities in the PC software world, let
>me make the following statement and see what happens:
>
>  IMHO, Larry Heimendinger and Ed Esber have little in common with 
>  Bill Gates, Phillipe Kahn or Dave Fulton.
>

I think they all have one thing in common, non of them have spoken to you
for 5 minutes.

>Finally, I acknowledge your world-reknowned expertise in Clipper,
>Tom, but claiming you are at least equal to the world's best
>FoxPro developer, and repeatedly listing various credits and
>accomplishments as if The Net were some sort of job interview
>forum (maybe it is - I don't know) strikes me as slightly humorous.

If I'm not bowing low enough to make you happy just let me know but I
foolishly thought that if I could write in dBASE III and Clipper that I
could put something fairly radical together in FoxPro.  If they are that
extraordinarily different perhaps you should post warnings.

The reason that I post "credits" is one of substantiation, it highlights
the possibility that I might actually know something about Clipper if all
it takes to become an "expert" these days is using the product for an hour
I'll waste a few hundred dollars to purchase dBASE IV and then you'll have
to respect my knowledge as equal to yours (right) ?
>
>In summary, I feel I and other 'Taters in this group are fairly
>objective toward PC DBMS products.  (btw, correct me if I am wrong,
>but I can not recall ever seeing a posting here from a current
>Nantucket or Fox Software employee.  Borland stopped posting here
>about a year ago, if I recall correctly.)  
>
>I think you may have some sort of virtual chip on your shoulder
>Tom, and because I (or others) are currently employed at Ashton-Tate
>you have read things into postings that are not there.

In summary, I don't find that to be the case at all, I find that I and
other Clipper developers clearly choose not to use and end users tool and
are therefore being called "nose in the air" types.  Pardon us for placing
quality applications before following the crowd chanting "standards".

If there is a chip it is plainly on your shoulder and it has affected your
vision.

If we might (Tom and Alastair) conclude this waste of time, we are not ever
likely to agree.  That you work for A-T does not IMO permit you to speak
candidly and I would fully expect to hear similar things about how neat
Paradox was if you worked for Borland.

dBASE is an inferior "language", it may be a wonderful "product" just as
DDT is a wonderful bug-killer but a lousy "food".  If you can't see the
deficiencies of dBASE as a language then I think A-T has more problems on
the horizon... but maybe you'll succeed in convincing everyone that all
previous yardsticks are inaccurate and only yours is the TRUE measure.

Best of luck but don't send me any updates...

tom
>