Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!wuarchive!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!maverick.ksu.ksu.edu!unlinfo.unl.edu!hoss!greg From: greg@hoss.unl.edu (Lig Lury Jr.) Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 Subject: Re: Lets sum up! (was: Apple II BBS discussion) Message-ID: <1991Jun6.190126.3708@unlinfo.unl.edu> Date: 6 Jun 91 19:01:26 GMT References: <1991Jun5.003237.27796@clark.edu> Sender: news@unlinfo.unl.edu Organization: GBBS/ACOS Sysop Support Lines: 227 Nntp-Posting-Host: hoss.unl.edu apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes: >szatezal@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu writes: All other attributions were garbled up by Amrit. I can't make any sense of them. >>I'm getting REALLY sick of this Proline is *IT* deal. PROLINE IS *NOT* god. >>For YEARS I had never even heard of Proline. When I first called >>a proline system, I was NOT impressed. Why? >For many years, I hadn't heard of GBBS. I've called a few, and I'm not >overwhelmed by it. It's also NOT GOD. I'm not extremely impressed by it >either. So we have come to the law of opinions. What one runs is what is best for that person. No-one is suggesting anyone should change. We're just appraising the differences between the systems, so that a person so informed would be able to make the choice that is right for them when buying a new system. However AppleSoft becomes very cumbersome and difficult to navigate as the program's size increases. Numbers become numbers, instead of pointers to important routines. >I made my OWN [MODs] WITHOUT MD-BASIC. I >can handle AppleSoft...sure it's EASIER with MD-BASIC, but what did you do >when you didn't have MD-BASIC? I wrote smaller programs, within the limits of what would be understandable in the future when I've been off the program for a long time, unless I know I won't be needing to edit it again. Apparently this is what was assumed with ProLine: that you won't be needing to edit it. >AppleSoft isn't so bad that you can't even >program in it. I don't particularly like AppleSoft, but I can still program >in it. So can I. I often use it to code up an important routine, or an application I need at the time. I don't know how many times I've coded a pixel-wise HGR editor from scratch. >I have successfully done so as well. If you don't have MD-BASIC, >then so what...make due with AppleSoft until you can get it. Already have it. However it does add to the cost. A time delay doesn't decrease the cost. >How many >programs are you going to try to write in AppleSoft anyway? If you're >serious about rewriting ProLine (and it never really needed any programming), >then go get yourself a GS and MD-BASIC. I have both. I still lack the needed hardware to run it. No hard drive. One 800K drive. Insufficient RAM to configure an 800K RAMdisk and still boot GS/OS anymore. I don't have APW or ORCA/M, which although listed as optional, it is the only option shown in the manual. >If you want to make a few MOD's, >then just use AppleSoft. MODs, or additions? There is a difference. >>Because: >>3) No Protocols. Ok, Proline has since received some, and will receive >> others in the future, I'll admit it. >Damn straight! Z-MODEM coming out soon. For what cost? I'm surprised it made it this far without Ymodem Batch. >>5) Proline's networking.... isn't unusual. The ONLY aspect of it that amazed >> me was usenet feed grabbing. I don't know of an Acos based system that >> can do it. I have seen Macos boards do it. Metal can too. >Ok..wait a minute...how many messages can you store on a GBBS system that >runs on a couple of 3.5 disks? ONE..MAYBE? I'm configured on 2 800K disks. 9 message areas, 8 at 64 messages, 1 at 128. >GBBS's message base really >SUCKS... > ProLine has an EXCELLENT message base...GBBS doesn't even have a >competitive one. IT REALLY SUCKS for messages. Give some reasons. >>6) Metal & Proline get free-updates. >OK...that's true. Last time I checked, the upgrade to ACOS v2.11 was free. I haven't received a bill yet. >>7) Acos & Metal boards ARE user friendly. Each board is different in some >> way than another. Some have total Proterm Special Effects/Animation, >> some have ANSI emulation. Most are customized. Myself, animation isn't all that great. Perhaps a special "Movie Theatre" for them, for those who want it, but animation doesn't really belong in message headers, menus, and switching between modes. Too high of a noise/signal ratio. Games are another place where they would be acceptable. >Like all the ProLine boards are THE SAME! Get real. ProLine isn't a >DO-IT-UP and use as much special effects and animation that may be neat the >first time you see them, but hell, do you have users that call everyday and >just stare at animation sequences? If you do, you've got some sad, and >lonely users. You could try being less insulting. Some systems, as I stated calmly, do overdo animation. I'm not into pull-down-menus that have to be sent remotely to me. Better to have special software. >ProLine has MANY, MANY on-line games that do, however, use >"special effects" but no color. Color slows down the speed of EVERYTHING on >the modem, and if you try and get a page of color in ANSI, how long does it >take to see it at 2400? Surely not as fast as simple text. Sure could slow things down, if you send a color command with every character. Reminds me of a board with CCG emulation. When it went into rainbow mode, it was like they slammed on the brakes. Their rainbow mode sends a color command with each character, cycling through the rainbow. This was on an AABBS, running on a C=128 I think. >Why do you >complicate things even more with graphics over a modem. Let's face it, ... >modems don't have good rates w/ graphics. Can GBBS do something useful with >special effects?...like maybe a full screen text editor? Definitely. Such a thing already exists. However I don't use it. I have other modifications that are more important to me right now. >You can use arrow >keys and everything with the "vedit" module. Can GBBS do that? I didn't >think so...what a waste of ANSI capabilities. The editor, BTW, is an ACOS ability, used by GBBS. The full-screen editor is a separate BIN file, and I believe is only for PSE users. METAL has one built into the language. >>8) When I helped a sysop write things for Proline, it was a HASSLE. I >>thanked god when the sysop purchased MD-BASIC. Changing your Proline >>system w/o MD-BASIC is hell. >Are you trying to re-write ProLine? It often feels that way. This shows our differing definitions of the term "MOD". >It took me about 10 mins to figure out all the variable >ProLine uses, and the ampersand comands...I don't even have a manual...i did >just fine. What happened to your manual? I was able to learn ACOS without opening my manual. When I needed detailed information, that was when I used the manual, like exactly how the USERS file is setup, what information is available in the DATA files, etc. >With anything you have to take a little time to get used to >it...but when you do, you know how it works. Like you just can load up GBBS >and start programming without looking at ANYTHING first, right...ok..here's >one for you...NOT. With some perusing of the source files, you can figure out what does what pretty easily. Plus you have a complete source listing available in hard copy in the back of the manual. Very handy when you are making mods, and you think, "Well, how did _they_ do it?" Didn't cost me ribbon wear and paper to get that information. >>Applesoft basic's flexibility? Ha... that's like saying a cement block >>is flexible!! >I've gotten a cement block to bend...guess I'm pretty strong...maybe strong >willed is more the word. Bend? More like break, don't you think? >>There are EASILY 3 or 4 times as many Acos/Macos boards out there than >>Proline. >>It is very much easier to start a new Acos/Metal board than it is Proline. >>Think not? TRY IT. Well, I had some trouble finding out how to get METAL to install. Turns out I missed some important doc files that I needed to read first. It could use an automated config program like ACOS has. >How many GBBS boards are there out >there, and how many are legal GBBS boards? You are getting very insulting with this constant mentioning of the word "legal". How would you like it if people started asking you how many ILLEGAL ProLine boards are out there? >ProLine boards are 1) all >networked together, If I get mine setup, I don't plan on being part of the network. Why should I? I doubt I'm the only ProLine owner who feels this way. I still don't like all the features I'll have to leave behind. >and 2) have about 4 to 5 times as many network bridges >than GBBS. Networking is not the sole reason to run a BBS. If every BBS was networked, you'd effectively have only one BBS. To borrow an abbrev. from rec.arts.startrek, IDIC. Check their FAQ for a definition. >Both GBBS and ProLine are "easy" to start...it's what it can do after >that that counts. Yes. Modifications are easier with ACOS than with AppleSoft. One can make mods in the easier language online, while to do so for ProLine, you'll have to run MD-BASIC, and thus go offline. I've tried remote AppleSoft coding. Not something I want to do again. >Amrit >ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com | >UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil | -- /// ____ \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there are | |/ / \ \| | several--one of the many major problems with governing \\_|\____/|_// people is of whom you get to do it, or more to the greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu point, who gets people to let them do it to them."