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From: apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2
Subject: Re: Lets sum up! (was: Apple II BBS discussion)
Message-ID: <1991Jun8.035310.7362@clark.edu>
Date: 8 Jun 91 02:53:22 GMT
Sender: usenet@clark.edu
Organization: Proline network.
Lines: 198

greg@hoss.unl.edu (Greg ????) writes:
>apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com (Amrit Chauhan) writes:
>>szatezal@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu writes:

>All other attributions were garbled up by Amrit.  I can't make any sense
>of them.

Sorry.  I am working on them.  This look ok?  I'm not used to making these
many atributions.  I think I got the hang of it now.

>>>I'm getting REALLY sick of this Proline is *IT* deal. PROLINE IS *NOT* god.
>>>For YEARS I had never even heard of Proline. When I first called
>>>a proline system, I was NOT impressed. Why?

>>For many years, I hadn't heard of GBBS.  I've called a few, and I'm not
>>overwhelmed by it.  It's also NOT GOD.  I'm not extremely impressed by it
>>either.

>So we have come to the law of opinions.  What one runs is what is best for
>that person.  No-one is suggesting anyone should change.  We're just
>appraising the differences between the systems, so that a person so
>informed would be able to make the choice that is right for them when
>buying a new system.

I think that it's pretty inevitable that people will take things to heart
here.  Yeah, we have our opinions, but it's human nature to REALLY stick by
them and a little opinion like that doesn't hurt.  We all know that we're
only defending aspects of each system.  A little interjecting opinion is ok.

>However AppleSoft becomes very cumbersome and difficult to navigate as the
>program's size increases.  Numbers become numbers, instead of pointers to
>important routines.

AppleSoft is not the BEST programming module on the market.  It's got its
difficult points, but it doesn't have ANY bugs.  ACOS does have bugs.  That's
a bit of a setback for it.  Yes, ACOS makes adding MOD's easy and fixing
programs much easier than in AppleSoft BASIC.  If ACOS gets out its bugs
(like in future updates) it will be a very capable program editor.  However,
although MD-BASIC can be run only on an Apple //gs, let's not forget how
powerful it is.  If, in fact, you have an Apple //gs, and you want to
seriously rework ProLine, then buying MD-BASIC would not be a horrible idea. 
You don't have to use for ProLine ONLY mods...there are those that buy it for
their own programming needs.  Have we done any comparisons between MD-BASIC
and ACOS yet?  Put aside the fact that it can only be run on an Apple //gs,
and let's look at both program editors.  We're all aware that it can only run
on an Apple //gs.  That's unfortunate, but all the same, a reality.

One other thing.  NO program in ProLine needs to be rewritten.  If you wanted
to write your own additions to ProLine, ok.  If you wanted to add a little
MOD to this little program, then that's great too.  But no one ever, EVER has
rewritten a program from scratch.  There's no need to.  Just keep that in
mind, and the fact that the option still exists to edit programs if you want.

>>Already have it.  However it does add to the cost.  A time delay doesn't
>>decrease the cost.

Sorry...lost the bit I wrote.  You were talking about MD-BASIC.  It doesn't
have to add to the cost of ProLine.  MD-BASIC is not a ProLine only program
editor.  You can buy it for other programming needs as well.

>>If you want to make a few MOD's,
>>then just use AppleSoft.

>MODs, or additions?  There is a difference.

Both.

>>>Because: 
>>>3) No Protocols. Ok, Proline has since received some, and will receive
>>>   others in the future, I'll admit it.

>>Damn straight!  Z-MODEM coming out soon. 

>For what cost?  I'm surprised it made it this far without Ymodem Batch.

In the update, it's free.  I don't know exactly how much it will drive up the
cost of the original program, but we can't speculate as to how much, if at
all (although highly probably) it will drive up the price.  That's simply in
the future.  And, ProLine was never meant to be a file x-fer based board.  It
has an OK file x-fer module right now, and I'm looking into another one that
is avilable for a bit of money.  No, it's not driving the cost of ProLine
up...it's $30 from someone on the net and I'm getting it because I want to
set up TWO separate data x-fer sections.  I can do it with the regular data
library I have already, but I have some money and I would like to see this
new module.

>>GBBS's message base really
>>SUCKS...
>>          ProLine has an EXCELLENT message base...GBBS doesn't even have a
>>competitive one.  IT REALLY SUCKS for messages.

>Give some reasons.

Ok..I'm being a bit obnoxious here.  Sorry.  1) ProLine has GREAT networking
capabilities (regardless of if you WANT them or not). 2) Both GBBS and
ProLine can have message bases in separate partitions.  3) ProLine message
bases can also be put into an 800K disk. 4) GBBS has bugs in the message
base, to my understanding.

>>Like all the ProLine boards are THE SAME!  Get real.  ProLine isn't a
>>DO-IT-UP and use as much special effects and animation that may be neat the
>>first time you see them, but hell, do you have users that call everyday and
>>just stare at animation sequences?  If you do, you've got some sad, and
>>lonely users.

>You could try being less insulting.  Some systems, as I stated calmly, do
>overdo animation.  I'm not into pull-down-menus that have to be sent
>remotely to me.  Better to have special software.

A little insulting, but not THAT bad.  I, PERSONALLY, don't like ANSI, or
animation unless I'm playing an on-line game.  Then, I'm prepared for the
slow screen updates, and I don't mind because if the game is good, I'm having
fun.  As far as message bases go, I agree that graphics don't belong there. 
Games, as you stated, are a GREAT place for color graphics.  ProLine does NOT
have this option.

>>Why do you
>>complicate things even more with graphics over a modem.  Let's face it, ...
>>modems don't have good rates w/ graphics.  Can GBBS do something useful
>>with special effects?...like maybe a full screen text editor?

>Definitely.  Such a thing already exists.  However I don't use it.  I have
>other modifications that are more important to me right now.

The full-screen text editor available on ProLine is a GREAT option.  It makes
things easier to edit, and I'm using it right now to add this message.  It
has it's SMALL downturns but it works well.  I like it.

>>It took me about 10 mins to figure out all the variable
>>ProLine uses, and the ampersand comands...I don't even have a manual...i did
>>just fine.

>What happened to your manual?

For the Ampersand commands...I don't have the manual.

>>>There are EASILY 3 or 4 times as many Acos/Macos boards out there than
>>>Proline.

>>How many GBBS boards are there out
>>there, and how many are legal GBBS boards?

>You are getting very insulting with this constant mentioning of the word
>"legal".  How would you like it if people started asking you how many
>ILLEGAL ProLine boards are out there?

Well, look...it's a cheap shot, but hey this is America. (don't take that too
seriously either). :)

>>and 2) have about 4 to 5 times as many network bridges
>>than GBBS.

>Networking is not the sole reason to run a BBS.  If every BBS was
>networked, you'd effectively have only one BBS.  To borrow an abbrev. from
>rec.arts.startrek, IDIC.  Check their FAQ for a definition.

Fine.  We understand that networking is not the only reason to run a BBS. 
But, like you said, we're only offering comparisions between the two systems.
ProLine has a better networking system than GBBS and just because you don't
want to network doesn't invalidate that point.  If you want to network, then
ProLine is better than GBBS in this aspect.

>Yes.  Modifications are easier with ACOS than with AppleSoft.  One can
>make mods in the easier language online, while to do so for ProLine,
>you'll have to run MD-BASIC, and thus go offline.  I've tried remote
>AppleSoft coding.  Not something I want to do again.

Let's not totally exluce MD-BASIC.  I want to run a few points on MD-BASIC
with no mention of the fact that it can be run on an Apple //gs only.  That
has been well asserted.  Now, what can ACOS do that MD-BASIC can't and
vise-versa?

>Amrit
>ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods     | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com     |
>UUCP: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo | ARPA: crash!pro-hindugods!apollo@nosc.mil |

>>--
>>///   ____   \\\ "The major problem--one of the major problems, for there
>>are
>> | |/ /    \ \| |       several--one of the many major problems with
>>governing
>>  \\_|\____/|_//            people is of whom you get to do it, or more to
>>the
>> greg \_\\\/ hoss.unl.edu    point, who gets people to let them do it to
>>them."

God...it's tough to include your signature :)  How are the attributes this
time?  I think I got it.

Amrit

==The Hindu Love Gods BBS - - - - Bloomfield Hills, MI - - - - 313/644-0481===
ProLine:apollo@pro-hindugods     | Internet:apollo@pro-hindugods.cts.com     |
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