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From: boyd@mailer.cc.fsu.edu (Mickey Boyd)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Dumb Beginner Questions
Message-ID: <35428@mimsy.umd.edu>
Date: 10 Jun 91 22:10:13 GMT
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Organization: Florida State University Computer Science Department
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Approved: gun-control@cs.umd.edu

In article <35382@mimsy.umd.edu>, andy@DEC-Lite.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes:
#
#As near as I can tell, the "often too big for small hands" comment
#isn't true.  How about telling me which specific guns are being
#referred to so I can take my friends with small hands to see for
#myself?

Sure.  Just about any high capacity 9mm will have a grip too large to attain
an "ideal" grip.  The "ideal" grip is one in which the axis of the bore 
lines up with the forearm.  When the gun is held in this position, it will 
recoil straight up.  Also, the most "meat" is then behind the grip to aid in
recoil absorbtion.  A "too large" grip forces the shooter to curl the hand  
farther around the gun, so the trigger finger can get good purchase on the
trigger.  This places the backstrap of the gun beneath the thumb, instead of 
centered in the web of the hand (and thus the forearm). 

A characteristic of guns that have both a DA and SA "trigger" is that the 
"reach" for each is different.  Thus, many folks can properly hold a DA 
high capacity 9mm and reach the trigger IF THE HAMMER IS COCKED.  To be 
able to double action the trigger, the gun must be shifted around.  

By the way, in case you have not noticed, it is not the size of the entire 
hand that affects this particular issue.  It is the length of the trigger
finger.

Another size issue is more at the extremes.  For example, a person with 
small hands must be able to get enough "curl" around the grips to be able 
to control the gun in recoil.  If the grips are way too large, the hands will
slide around on the grips.  Conversely, if the grips are too small, some part
of the gun will probably bang into one of your fingers (or thumb) and cause 
pain (a common place is right under the trigger guard).

Note:  I have seen folks shoot great without an ideal grip.  If you never 
	knew about it, it might not bother you.  You could learn to compensate
	for a "crooked" grip and be a great shot.  However, if you do know  
	about it . . . .

Note:  This "ideal" grip is the one described in every How-To-Shoot book I 
	have ever seen.  You get more control, and more consistant hand 
	movement (when squeezing the trigger). 

Note:  A more complete way to state the phenomena is "the grip is too large 
	for small hands to properly reach the trigger".  Properly is a 
	relative term :-).
 
Note:  For a couple of actual guns that have some or all of the above 
	problems, I would pick (just off the top of my head) the Beretta 92F,
	the HK P7/M13, the Dessert Eagle, and all pre-new generation S&W autos
	with more than a 10 round magazine. 

#My experience has been the exact opposite.  I have medium large hands
#(for example, the finger grooves in the hogue grips on S&W Classic
#hunters are too close together so I can't put my fingers in them) and
#there are guns that I can't really use because they're too small.

Making "generic" finger grooves on soft rubber grips makes some sense, 
since the rubber will bend slightly to give a good fit.  If the material 
is hard (nylon or wood), then it is a bit silly to think they will fit 
any hand on the planet.  Grip manufacturers know this, and they also 
know that most folks won't notice the difference unless they have hands 
on the extremes.  By the way, you sound like you would benifit from a 
set of Bill Jordan grips (who has fingers the size of bananas).  They 
do not have finger grooves, but they do enclose the backstrap of the gun
and give a "larger" feel.  Anyway, I would stay away from hard finger 
grooved grips unless you can try them out first (I shoot from a pair of 
Herret's one time and almost broke my second finger!!).   

#
#However, many of the novice women I go shooting with have tiny hands,
#and they don't have any problems with big guns, including semi-autos.
#(Their thumbs rarely reach the slide release when they're shooting,
#but they can turn the gun in their hand to take care of it when
#necessary without being appreciably slower than someone without that
#handicap.)

It is not the caliber of the gun so much as the "pull length".  If it 
matches up with the finger length (or close) it will work.  As for the 
thumbs reaching the slide release, they should not.  Slide releases 
should not be "hittable" while shooting, or they will lock the slide 
back (and stop the gun).  One should always use the off hand (or pull 
the slide back) to release the slide, even in practice.  The real test 
would be to hand a person two guns, one which allows a straight-line 
grip and one that does not, with all other things being equal.  Then 
they would both be shot, and any difference noted.  Of course, this is 
kind of hard to do . . . . 

If you grab a CZ-75 (or one of the copies, or a Bren Ten), you will 
notice that it does not feel like a 2 by 4 (like other high capacity 9's).
The reason for this is the deep curved "dip" at the top of the grip, which 
allows the web of the hand to settle in closer to the trigger.  Now we come 
to one of my pet peeves.  My CZ is a real one (from Czechoslovok), and it 
came with thin hard plastic grips.  The grips actually "set" into the gun, 
and thus they do not add hardly any circumference to the gun.  The frame of 
the gun itself is skeletonized in the grip area to facilitate the smallest 
grip possible.  This is as close to perfect as you can get (on a 16 round 
9mm).  The problem is with the copies of this gun. All CZ copies I have seen
(the AT-84, TZ-75, and P-9) all come with either wood or rubber grips.  Both 
of these materials have to be considerably thicker than hard plastic to 
remain stable.  Thus, the brilliant gun manufactuers have managed to take 
a solution to the 9mm big grip problem and screw it up!!  I have a beautiful 
set of wood grips for my CZ that will remain in the closet forever (this is 
how I found out about the importance of grip size).  I wish they would
include a set of hard plastic grips with the guns (they must cost about $0.17).
 

-- 
             Mickey R. Boyd          |  "God is a comedian playing to an 
          FSU Computer Science       |      audience too afraid to laugh."
        Technical Support Group      |
      email:  boyd@fsucs.cs.fsu.edu  |                  - Voltaire