Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!aero-c!nadel From: uunet!infmx!robert@ncar.UCAR.EDU (robert coleman) Newsgroups: soc.feminism Subject: Re: birth control failure? Message-ID: Date: 6 Jun 91 01:25:50 GMT References: <675575737@lear.cs.duke.edu> <675716623@lear.cs.duke.edu> <1991Jun4.233445.1484@panix.uucp> Sender: uunet!infmx!news@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Usenet News) Organization: Informix Software, Inc. Lines: 74 Approved: nadel@aerospace.aero.org Status: R Originator: nadel@aerospace.aero.org panix!mara@cmcl2.nyu.EDU (Mara Chibnik) writes: >In article <675716623@lear.cs.duke.edu> gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit) >addresses Muffy Barkocy: ->I have no intention to force you to carry a child you don't want, ->so please lay down your prepared "choice for *WOMEN*" speech. -He may honestly mean it, but it isn't enough. -As things now stand, women are actively discouraged from seeking -abortions. To demand that a man be able to pull out with simple -efficiency by the announcement that he disowns the pregnancy is -simply not sufficient unless and until a woman can truly terminate -the pregnancy without having to undergo the kind of pressuring that -she now faces. ->choice for men in a case of birth control failure, and what kind of ->choice you may be willing to offer to *MEN*. -Turn the women's right to an abortion into reality rather than myth, -and then let's see what we can offer men. This is rather a strange observation. We are, without question, fighting a continual battle to enable women to have a choice to have an abortion, but at the current moment, the legal right exists. I know women who have had them. That strange word "myth" is completely inapplicable in the current circumstances; it means "never". If I could find one example, it would invalidate "myth"; I can find tens of thousands of examples, if I so choose. In spite of all societal pressures, women exercise their legal right to abortions all the time. It's no myth. In contrast, the legal concept of men's right to an abortion *is* a myth. Now, perhaps you're concerned about social pressures. I think you'd find, if you were a man, that there is a great deal of social pressure on men to "make an honest woman of her", and support children born out of wedlock. If you read the net much (and I know you do) you've no doubt seen the recent go-rounds on soc.men where some men were telling other men that they were (insert your favorite male-gender-based derogatory word) for thinking that they shouldn't be required to support children they didn't want. I would expect public outcry very much on the same level as the pro-life crowd should men ever attempt to implement said rights, from these men and from other directions as well. Perhaps you think that wouldn't happen; we'll probably never know, at least not in my lifetime. You're a *big* step ahead of us; you've got your abortion rights, and are fighting to keep and implement them. We've got no abortion rights to defend. You know, your ultimatum ("Turn women's right...into reality...") could very easily be turned around from us: turn men's right to an abortion into reality, and then we'll see what we can offer women. The clearest evidence of the discrepency of our positions is this: my threat is a serious danger, because you *have* something to take away. Your threat? (shrug). Won't change my life a bit, because I have nothing to lose. ---------------- Did it ever occur to you that you might actually win that extra bit of support you need to assure that abortion will be a lasting right, and socially acceptable, if you supported men for the same privilege? That maybe some of the resistance to abortion rights comes from men who recognize that under the current situation, they have no rights, and therefore would prefer that women didn't have any either? Robert C. -- ---------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: My company has not yet seen fit to elect me as spokesperson. Hmmpf.