Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: djdaneh@pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Question? Message-ID: Date: 9 Jun 91 18:59:53 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA Lines: 111 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article ogorman@unix1.tcd.ie writes: >hi. >a question. >if god is the first cause, and if our conception with regard to his >character is correct (i.e. that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and good) >and if we believe that god is love, then since satan (the devil, >whatever you like) was brought into existence by god he must have been >good. totally good since god could not create evil. if so then how could >he be corrupted? indeed how could evil exist if god did not create it? Ollie, This is, of course, not a completely new question; indeed, it is *the* question, not only for Christians but for anyone who wishes to believe that the Universe is essentially good but can't deny the large amounts of evil present in it. It's generically referred to as the Problem of Evil. Christians have proposed many answers over the last two millenia. The most frequently-used, and I guess the most "correct" theologically, is often unacceptable to non-Christians and even to many Christians. The basic form of this is that "God wanted us to have Free Will; Free Will inherently contains the possibility of sin/evil." Unfortunately, this only leaves the obvious next question: "Since God is all-knowing, and therefore must have known that sin/evil would result from creating the Universe this way, God *IS* responsible for the existence of evil." The next few paragraphs are an elaboration on this which works for me; if you're not interested, please skip to the line of asterisks ("*"s), after which I'll mention a few other answers that have been proposed. By the way, this elaboration is my own and should not be considered an orthodox doctrine. I don't speak for any Church but only for myself. God, in Christian theology, is Love. What it means to "be Love" isn't always clear to us; but it *is* clear that perfect Love must have some object (beloved). Within God, we (most Christians) have located three Persons, commonly referred to as the Trinity (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost/Spirit), which can be described (in human terms) as the Lover, the Beloved, and Love-Itself. This forms, in my infallible :*) opinion, an adequate description of what Love is, and of what it might mean to "be Love." But this is still, in a way, limited; using theological terms, They're three Persons but a single Essence. Perfect Love needed something not Themselves to lavish Their Love upon. And, being perfect, there is no reason why they could not have created a perfect object for Their Love -- except that they *were* already a perfect object for Their own Love and any such object, created perfect, would be merely an extension (or perhaps a duplication) of Their own already-infinite Self/Selves. So They created an universe full of imperfect beings. The subtlety of this solution isn't immediately obvious; what brings it to the fore is the realization that They then offered those imperfect beings a chance to *BECOME* perfect, through the action of Their Love. We begin as we are, failed, imperfect, sinful. We are offered Their Love. And if we choose to accept it unconditionally (there is no other way to accept a perfect Love without destroying its perfection), it will work upon us, and, over time (or over Eternity), perfect us. But in becoming perfect we will not become just more of God. We can't ever be perfect from the beginning; we will be perfected beings -- and each perfected in a different way, from imperfections unique to us, so that even in being perfected we will be distinct from each other, will maintain our identity. We will become not only perfect recipients for God's Love, but also perfect lovers-worshippers of God. All that sounds kind of gooshy and boring. I suggest that it isn't; I suggest that it is the greatest adventure imaginable, that achievement of perfection surpasses any other possible happiness or thrill. But I do not know. I only hope. ******************************************************************************** Anyway, some other possible answers to the Problem that have been used by various Christians over the years. . . God allowed the Universe to contain evil to make it interesting. That is, it is a work of art. Imagine a drama millions of years long, with no villains, in which nothing bad ever happens to any of the "dramatis personae." Boring, huh? Or: There are two Gods, one good and one evil; the good God is, of course, the "real" God, but the evil one made the world of matter. Generally, this explanation is rejected as the Manichaean heresy. Or: There is no evil. Everything is for the best in this, the best of all possible worlds. What we think is evil is due to the finite limits of our ability to perceive the real ramifications of phenomena; the Large View shows it to be part of some Greater Good. This is referred to as muddle-headed optimism:*). There are many other answers, and most of them boil down to variations on the "Free Will" issue. Certainly, most of the best do. I hope this helps. Best, He asks "How does it feel to be such a freak?" And he laughs as he hands you a bone, Yes, something is happening here And you don't know what it is Do you, Mr. Jones? -- Bob Dylan The Roach