Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!ukma!seismo!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: horsch@cs.ubc.ca (Michael Horsch) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: The New Birth Message-ID: Date: 9 Jun 91 19:19:51 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada Lines: 60 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article NU169273@vm1.nodak.edu writes: :[...] :Nicodemus was a Pharisee, a very strict religionist. He :celebrated the Passover, paid tithes, said prayers, brought :sacrifices, tried to keep the law. And it was to HIM the Lord :Jesus said, "Ye must be born again." You are playing fast and loose with context here. What you haven't chosen to tell us is that Nicodemus has already made a confession of sorts about Jesus: "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher sent by God." This confession suggests to me that Jesus was not telling Nicodemus that he lacked an essential ingredient for salvation, but explaining to him what that ingredient is. In other words, if Nicodemus had not already been reborn, he would not have recognized Jesus. Recall Peter's confession, and Jesus' reaction to it. [...] :1. It is a mystery you can't explain, but a reality no :man can explain away. This is no definition. You seem to be arguing for a special kind of "feeling" that only the "feeler" can understand, and this is not helpful either. By leaving 'rebirth' ill-defined, or defined only in terms of a personalized emotional response to a conversion experience, you seem to make illegitimate the faith of anyone who can't identify that special kind of feeling. Thus you steal faith in God's grace, replacing it with faith in a feeling. :[...] :Why You Must Be Born Again : :1. Because the Lord Jesus Christ said so. : :That ought to settle it. Why argue about it when He Who is the :Son of God says you must be born again? He ought to know. The phrase "must be" is interesting in modern English, having two nearly opposing readings. The first is "need to be" as in "I must be leaving." The second is "really are" as in "You must be dreaming." Now read the last few lines of the basenote again, starting from "Why You Must Be Born Again". This English ambiguity is incidental, but still interesting. Perhaps an indicator for being "reborn" is the following: Do you hear the so-called saviour say: "You have to be born again," or do you hear Jesus the son of God say: "You really are born again"? Personally, I prefer it to trying to identify an ill-defined feeling. :K. Paulson :N. D. S. U. student :1372 32nd Street South #20 :Fargo, ND 58103 Mike (goo) -- Michael C. Horsch Department of Computer Science horsch@cs.ubc.ca University of British Columbia