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From: gmk@falstaff.mae.cwru.edu (Geoff Kotzar)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: S&W Chief's Special and +p ammo
Message-ID: <35615@mimsy.umd.edu>
Date: 14 Jun 91 00:56:54 GMT
Sender: magnum@mimsy.umd.edu
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
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In article <35550@mimsy.umd.edu> dougb@tc.fluke.COM (Doug Barker) writes:

(stuff deleted)
#
#My question:  S&W provides an ambiguous warning about shooting
#+p in the owners manual. Some versions of the model 60 do not
#allow for +p at all.  For defense loads, I really like Federal
#Hydra-Shok for my 9mm but am wondering just how much I can shoot
#the .38 version in my model 60.  Any advice on how much is too
#much?     Any comments on the Hydra-Shok as a defense load?
#
#
#Doug Barker

It just so happens that I picked up an old copy of the American Rifleman
in a gun shop last week with an article on "+P .38 SPL. Loads" dated
November 1986 and it is presently here in my office. Charles Petty was
the author.

Some data he provided:

LOAD                     PRESSURE
                          (CUP)
38 Spl                    18,900
38 Spl +P                 21,900
38 Spl +P+ approx.        25,000
38 Spl PROOF LOAD         27,000
38 Spl +P PROOF LOAD      30,900
357 Mag                   48,500

This is a 3 page article that deals with the specific recommendations
from the following manufacturers: Colt, Ruger, Charter Arms, Interarms
(Rossi), and S&W.

Colt: Aluminum framed Agent and Cobra guns were approved for "limited use
with +P ammunition". For the steel framed guns they recommended having the
gun checked every 2-3000 rounds by an authorized repair station. Aluminum
frame guns should be checked every 1000 rounds.

Charter Arms: did not recommend the use of +P in their 5-shot revolvers
but acknowledged that such use would occur and stated "Probably the biggest
problem in shooting +P ammo from our 5-shot guns is that a steady diet of
these will hurt your hand and pocketbook more than anything".

Interarms: unequivocal NO.

Ruger: essentially they felt that +P and +P+ would have no detrimental
effect on the life of their revolvers.

S&W: For the aluminum frame guns +P should not be used. For the steel 
J-frame guns they allowed that +P and +P+ may be used but that the increased
pressure and heat would accelerate the wear on the revolvers and that erosion
of the breech could result allowing greater particle spitting and a greater
susceptability to barrel cracking. They also noted that use of this ammo
could cause greater than normal endshake in the cylinder to develop. Their 
final recommendation was "Revolvers should be inspected for wear such as
barrel erosion and cylinder endshake at intervals consistent with use of
the weapon." 

I do not think about my model 36 ( the blued version of your gun) the way I
do about my heavier revolvers. Snub guns are not meant for a lifetime of
shooting, at least for me. I expect to have to replace it eventually. If I were
in your shoes I would find a gunsmith I trusted and have him or her inspect
my gun occasionally, maybe every 300-500 round of +P. If that seems too high
pick a lesser number you feel comfortable with. 

These little guns are much more robust than you might think. As Charles
Petty pointed out your gun has already had to withstand a cylinderful of
loads which are higher pressure than +P+. My 36 has fired a load listed
in one of the reloading manuals from 20 years ago that I later found
generated 32,000 CUP (copper unit of pressure) in the longer 357 Mag
case. How much higher the pressures were in the shorter 38 SPL case I
cannot say but they had to be significantly so. My loading notes show
that I fired 200 of those loads.  I discontinued using that load when I
found out how high the pressures were. That same gun has shot countless 
standard and +P loads since that time and aside from some wear at the 
breech it is in fine shape and still in use.

If a copy of this article would be of some use to you, send me a self
addressed envelope and I will copy it for you. My address is

Geoffrey Kotzar
Case Western Reserve University
Orthopaedic Engineering Lab.
615 Glennan Bldg.
Cleveland, Ohio 44106