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From: jan@oas.olivetti.COM (Jan Parcel)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: birth control failure?
Message-ID: <49657@ricerca.UUCP>
Date: 11 Jun 91 23:17:46 GMT
References: <14904@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>
Reply-To: jan@oas.olivetti.COM
Followup-To: soc.feminism
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Approved: tittle@ics.uci.edu
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In article <14904@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> Rich.Berlin@eng.sun.COM writes:
>farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.EDU (lisa ann farmer) writes:
>> How Convenient!  If the male ignores the fact that he has impregnated
>> a female he will therefore have no obligation to the child.  By this
>> system I can imagine very few males (except those prepared and wanting
>> parenthood) to accept responsibilty.  I don't buy it and I won't vote
>> for it.
>
>You make it sound as though supporting a child is the man's
>"punishment for having sex" the same way pregnancy is the woman's:

Actually, it is, in a way.  I have posted before that I don't agree
with the current system, but a woman does have to deal with
*something* traumatic no matter what, if there is a pregnancy.  I
don't think it is safe to let the men of the hook entirely, and then
give them the power to opt out as if it was nothing or to require
joint custody.  Either I would like to see the default stay the same
except for allowing the man to take custody if the woman gives it up,
and default to joint custody if she keeps it, or, if we took Hillel's
proposal, I would like to give the woman the option of not notifying
the father.  (Under either mine or his proposal, I would want a
pre-coital contract to override the default.)

>Do most women share Lisa's view of men as irresponsible?  (I find it
>insulting that someone would even think I'd abandon a woman who had an
>accidental pregnancy to which I "contributed.")

This discussion only refers to irresponsible people.  Responsible
people don't need the laws to tell them what to do.  Hillel's proposal
would be as unnecessary as the current system if *everyone* was
responsible.

>Nevertheless, how many women define "irresponsible" the way Lisa seems
>to, i.e.  "he doesn't want to pay to support a child that he didn't
>want but I *did*?"  Remember, the man's obligation to the child comes
>into play only if the woman decides not only to carry to term, but to
>*keep* and *raise* the child as well.

You make it sound like carrying a child for 9 months, with all the
kicking, etc, and signs of life, will still make giving up the child
the more passive decision.

>To my knowledge, an adopted
>child has no right to claim financial support from her or his genetic
>parents.

Unless the adoption doesn't go through.

>enormity of the responsibility of being a parent.  (I'd be interested
>in hearing from "retired" mothers out there who feel that "eighteen
>years of being responsible for them was no big deal, but the
>pregnancy--boy, I wouldn't wish that on anyone!")  It appers to me
>that we are talking about a legal situation in which that eighteen+
>year commitment can be forced on men but not on women.  OK by me--I
>have reasonable options for dealing with that situation; all of us can
>exercise choice over whom we have sex with.

I'm not retired yet -- but I have 17 years experience.  My first preg
and birth were easy, the second one could have endangered my life and
the child's from conception, whether I had had an abortion or birth.
(She's fine, thank you, if she would only do her *homework* !!)

But I know women whose lives were at risk for any pregnancy, and my
stand on women's rights over their bodies stems partly from a fear of
judges deciding medical matters (some judges got both mother and child
killed this way a year or two ago!!)

Back to the adoption bit.  I admire women who can give up a child for
adoption, but I suspect they're rare.

[They are.  One source noted that 3 percent of unwed mothers in the US
actually give up their child at birth.  cf. _Abortion: The Clash of
Absolutes_ by Laurence H. Tribe.  --CTM]

I could no more do that than donate my heart at childbirth.  Some
women who *did* give up children in the 40's and 50's have said they
never recovered.  My kids told me they feel the same way the other day
when we were discussing "what to do if".  I think some of the
stereotyping of men as irresponsible may come from a sort of
flabbergasted inability to understand some very loud men who make it
sound like this should be easy.

Bear in mind, too, that I'm not especially fond of kids, although I
love my own.  I wouldn't sucker a man into getting me pregnant so I
could have a cutsey-wootsy baby.  It's just that, for me, the only
thing worse than the 18-year responsibility would be not knowing where
my child was.  This is why I'm more sympathetic to men's demands for
rights over their children than to their demands for easily avoiding
responsibility for them.  AND, AGAIN, I support more choice for this
than already exists, such as the contract idea, but a failure of birth
control WILL leave a woman with a tough choice no matter what, so I
would like to see a mechanism which requires discussion and agreement
ahead of time.

~~~ jan@orc.olivetti.com   or    jan@oas.olivetti.com  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We must worship Universal Consciousness as each of the 5 genders in turn
if we wish to be fully open to Yr glory.
						-- St. Xyphlb of Alpha III