Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!usc!aero-c!nadel From: farmerl@handel.CS.ColoState.Edu (lisa ann farmer) Newsgroups: soc.feminism Subject: Re: birth control failure? Message-ID: <15445@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU> Date: 11 Jun 91 17:56:29 GMT References: <14904@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> Sender: news@ccncsu.ColoState.EDU Reply-To: farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.edu (lisa ann farmer) Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523 Lines: 82 Approved: nadel@aerospace.aero.org Status: R Originator: nadel@aerospace.aero.org In article <14904@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> Rich.Berlin@eng.sun.COM writes: >farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.EDU (lisa ann farmer) writes: >> How Convenient! If the male ignores the fact that he has impregnated >> a female he will therefore have no obligation to the child. By this >> system I can imagine very few males (except those prepared and wanting >> parenthood) to accept responsibilty. I don't buy it and I won't vote >> for it. > >You make it sound as though supporting a child is the man's >"punishment for having sex" the same way pregnancy is the woman's: Maybe we are speaking two different languages but I have read the above paragraph over and over and can't see how you could conclude that. > >Do most women share Lisa's view of men as irresponsible? (I find it >insulting that someone would even think I'd abandon a woman who had an >accidental pregnancy to which I "contributed.") THere is an enormous difference between the people who have access to computers and the net as compared to those who don't. I am saying that your education has been different, the people you know, your income and culture. I am not saying that you are better for it but you have come in to contact with more feminists and feminism than those of lower/lower-middle class. And I would say that age has a lot to do with it ... I can not see many of my male peers dealing maturely with the fact that someone they had sex with is pregnant. I'm talking people around 19,20,21 years old. Of course, my view of men is going to be different because my peer group is younger > >Nevertheless, how many women define "irresponsible" the way Lisa seems >to, i.e. "he doesn't want to pay to support a child that he didn't >want but I *did*?" Remember, the man's obligation to the child comes >into play only if the woman decides not only to carry to term, but to >*keep* and *raise* the child as well. To my knowledge, an adopted >child has no right to claim financial support from her or his genetic >parents. This indicates to me that the issue is not solely one of >abortion rights for women, because the *second* decision, retaining >custody of the child, is the one that confers power over the father's >pocketbook. And I'm a bit surprised to hear the women in this >newsgroup lobbying to retain that right, since it is rooted in the >same patriarchal value system that puts up barriers to women's equal >employment: the assumption that mothers and children are inseparable >and the father's role is to generate the income that supports them. I used the phrase "accept responsiblity". I don't think financial support is the only way a male can act responsibly. But let me bring up one point why I see *at this point* that financial support is important. A woman who is pregnant will have to take a leave of absence from her job - many times this is not available to her. Therefore she must quit. Now she must find another job, find someone to take care of the infant while she is looking/interviewing, maybe relocate if the area she is in has a horrible economy and once she gets a job she will most likely be paid less than her male counterparts. Now she has to live - supporting herself and the child - she may not have health insurance if she worked at a small company before and has to pay off the hospital. Plus any doctor's visits. And she missed maybe a month's pay or more having the child and finding a new job. I'm not saying this is the way it should be but for many women this is their situation. I think we need to start looking at this issue from the perspective of the "common" worker who is making $20,000 or less per year. This women cannot support herself and the child. If the U.S had national health insurance, daycare available at employment, and a women and men were paid equally and given the same amount of chances for advancement, I would not advocate that the men pay child support (or help with daycare or provide health insurance for the child) unless they wanted. But this isn't the case I don't advocate that women should have to support the child on her own. I think this society has responsibilty of keeping parents sane and able to raise children. It is an incredibly stressful situation to try to raise a child when the money isn't there. Many times that stress gets taken out on children. I think that we need to look at the overall effect not providing adequate daycare and insurance has on the future of our society - I agree it should not rest on individuals shoulders. >-- Rich Lisa farmerl@handel.cs.colostate.edu "If people want to make war they should make a colour war and paint each other's cities up in the night in pinks and greens." Yoko Ono (_Louder than Words_)