Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!aero-c!nadel
From: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: birth control failure?
Message-ID: <676686826@lear.cs.duke.edu>
Date: 12 Jun 91 00:33:47 GMT
References: <14904@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> <49657@ricerca.UUCP>
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Organization: The Immoral Minority
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Approved: nadel@aerospace.aero.org
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Originator: nadel@aerospace.aero.org



In article <49657@ricerca.UUCP> jan@oas.olivetti.COM writes:

>Actually, it is, in a way.  I have posted before that I don't agree
>with the current system, but a woman does have to deal with
>*something* traumatic no matter what, if there is a pregnancy.  

Do you assume that "having" a child that they don't want is not
traumatic for men?

Do you assume that abortion against their will is not
traumatic for men?

(I don't argue against choice for women; I argue against the
stereotype of men as trauma-free creatures.)

>This discussion only refers to irresponsible people.  Responsible
>people don't need the laws to tell them what to do.  

Do *responsible* women need a choice of abortion, in a case
of a birth control failure?

Do responsible men need any choice, in a case of a birth control failure?

>But I know women whose lives were at risk for any pregnancy, and my
>stand on women's rights over their bodies stems partly from a fear of
>judges deciding medical matters (some judges got both mother and child
>killed this way a year or two ago!!)

#Today there is only one maternal death in 10,000 births; the vast majority of 
#those are women who entered their pregnancy with some kind of health problem.
                       --  ("Planning Ahead for Pregnancy", Sheldon H. Cherry)

BTW the probability of random male to die in Vietnam was 50,000/125,000,000=
1:2,500; the vast majority entered the army with no health problems...

>when we were discussing "what to do if".  I think some of the
>stereotyping of men as irresponsible may come from a sort of
>flabbergasted inability to understand some very loud men who make it
>sound like this should be easy.

Do you think that giving 25% of your income to a child you did 
not want, and you have no rights toward him/her, is easy?!

Do you think that it is so easy to a teenager to put his life 
"on hold" because his girlfriend wants be a mother?

>than already exists, such as the contract idea, but a failure of birth
>control WILL leave a woman with a tough choice no matter what, 

A failure of birth control leaves men with no choice at all.

I think that a tough choice is better than no choice at all, and IMO
most pro-choice people think so too; that's why they fight so hard.

>~~~ jan@orc.olivetti.com   or    jan@oas.olivetti.com  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hillel                                           gazit@cs.duke.edu

"But certainly Jess and Clay (and others) are right in insisting that
none of us should be forced to sacrifice a personal dream for
someone else's ideals."  --  Mara Chibnik