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From: marcelo@deadzone.uucp (Marcelo Gallardo)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: I Accuse (the New Gestappo...)
Message-ID: <1991Jun19.003103.16932@deadzone.uucp>
Date: 19 Jun 91 00:31:03 GMT
References: <1637@lehi3b15.csee.Lehigh.EDU> <1991Jun16.032125.19880@ddsw1.MCS.COM> <1991Jun16.171754.24492@athena.cs.uga.edu> <1991Jun18.023039.10671@ddsw1.MCS.COM>
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learn@ddsw1.MCS.COM (William Vajk) writes:

>You here admit that your concern for punishment includes what someone else
>might do. With this mindset, it is impossible for you to do justice to
>precept #1, and you end up imposing a much harsher punishment than the
>misbehavior deserves.

>I remember my high school days. Student teacher days, in fact. We were in
>class, and some one of the students made a loud noise, slamming a desktop
>while we were all busy with our heads down minding our own business. Teacher
>demanded to know who made the noise, and with no volunteers, and no tattlers
>(because we were too busy to notice) the entire class was punished for the
>misbehavior of one. 

>Student judiciaries are almost always rubber stamps for administration
>wishes. And they are used, as it is being used in this instance, to
>deflect blame from the administration.

	Then again, some might be used so that you can be judged by your
	peers.

>These powers are established by the administration. What else is new ?

	No, sometimes these powers are established by the student body
	voting. 

>Aha, you finally agree that the student is being punished. Not at all
>a "learning experience" with positive overtones.
	
	Did you ever do something wrong when you were a kid? My guess is
	yes (everybody has). Did your parents punish you, regardless of
	whether it was aginst the "law"? When you do something "wrong"
	there should be some sort of punishment. 

>>My own feeling is that 2 quarters' suspension is exactly right. It's
>>desirable to get this person away from the University's computers for a
>>while, and away from the small circle of crackers that he was apparently
>>associating with. I don't think this will make him a college dropout.

>YOU don't think? Who the hell appointed you to make this decision ? You
>have single handedly taken this student's entire academic, and perhaps
>professional life, and made this decision in the matter of minutes. Did
>you call the parents ? Did you review his records, all of them, even
>back to High School. Did you discuss this with other facalty members ?
>You know, Spafford discusses responsibility as part of the realm, a level 
>of responsibility which I see as becoming more and more a unidirectional 
>demand than a universal reality. 
	
	I don't understand what you are saying. If he is a dedicated
	student, he'll return to college and finish his education. Along
	with a diploma, he will also have learned (or hopefully have
	learned) a little bit about life as well. On a side note, who
	the hell appointed you? Oh and to answer your question, the
	University appointed him ;-).

>I accuse you of seeing very little past the precious computer system which 
>you see "attacked." 
	
	You don't seem to understand that this "precious computer
	system" isn't the students to do with as he wishes. The student
	was GIVEN access to it so he could use it as an aide to his
	college education. Not so he could give the SysAdmin something
	to do, or something else to worry about. 

>I accuse you of putting your precious computer above the 
>human understanding and compassion. I accuse you of not noticing this student,
>and perhaps others like him, who within your academic environment of learning
>has without a doubt given more than one indication of needing a little help
>to mature. And when you finally do notice him it is because your little
>world has been "invaded" by some nasty outsiders. And you respond with the
>heavy hand of self-righteousness. I accuse you, and the Georgia Tech
>administration of failing at the most elementary levels to be educators in
>the true sense.
	
	The student has been noticed, and dealt with. There are plenty
	of places for a college student to go if he needs help adjusting
	to college life, and "maturing". Giving away a password file to
	a system, which also has the passwords of his friends and
	classmates, so that it can be broken into is not the proper way
	of getting noticed.

>Once more you are more concerned about what others might think. What 
>business is it of yours to be concerned with anything other than doing
>those things necessary to do justice to this student.
	
	Once more you neglect the fact that this student hasn't done the
	things necessary to show that he belongs in a university
	environment, much less the Internet.


>Those who believed he should be expelled are doubtless undereducated
>in human respect and understanding.
	
	Maybe so, but we're dealing with computers, respect and
	understanding for them are important as well.

>Those who would punish to the detrement of a student instead of making
>the outcome a positive learning experience lack the imaginaton necessary
>to be a good educator. And to take this one step further, why is it that
>you are here NOW, when the decisions have been made, asking such questions?
>They should have been asked, since you NOW realize there's some question
>regarding the wisdom of the episode and administrative handling of it,
>before decisions were reached. The fact that you and the administration 
>were hell bent to reach a solution, even a bad one, adds credence to my
>accusations. Further, this bit is a clear indication to me that you
>personally are just now coming off the high brought on by the discovery
>of the "attack" on your baby. And we all know what riding on such a high 
>does to wisdom and good judgement.
	
	For someone with so much hype about human compasion and
	consideration, I would have thought that you would give the
	System Administrator a little of the respect that you speak of.
	I suppose that you never considered that the SysAdmin is also a
	human. 

>I suggest you get in touch with Mike Meyers, the former owner and system
>administrator of M-net, a public access system in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Mike's
>solution to bad behavior was to give the individual some responsibility
>on the system, and some support. His 100% positive results would doubtless 
>amaze you. If you're really interested, I'll e-mail you his phone number.
	
	OK, we'll see in 2 semesters what the result of this SysAdmin's
	decision (why do we keep discussing him, it was the STUDENTS
	that passed "sentence").

-- 
Marcelo Gallardo			marcelo%deadzone@princeton.edu
Test and Evaluation Specialist		...!princeton!deadzone!marcelo
Princeton University			marcelo@sparcwood.princeton.edu
Advanced Technologies and Applications		(609) 258-5661