Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!think.com!mintaka!yale!bunker!hcap!hnews!275!429!Earl.Appleby From: Earl.Appleby@f429.n275.z1.fidonet.org (Earl Appleby) Newsgroups: misc.handicap Subject: Re: Worth considering Message-ID: <16236@handicap.news> Date: 19 Jun 91 01:56:36 GMT Sender: wtm@bunker.isc-br.com Reply-To: Earl.Appleby@f429.n275.z1.fidonet.org Organization: FidoNet node 1:275/429 - HandiNet B B S, Virginia Beach VA Lines: 102 Approved: wtm@bunker.hcap.fidonet.org Index Number: 16236 Hello, Nadine. I just received your message of May 27th in which you comment: NT> It makes me very sad indeed to see how you twist the debate to YOUR NT> closed minded NT> thinking and then call me and others close minded. I, too, am sad, Nadine. But this is not the appropriate forum for me to express my personal disappointment. Besides you are perceptive enough to know why, were you to chose to reflect on it. But that is your choice. For what it's worth, my reference was to those who prefer to ignore facts rather than deal with them, primarily two gentlemen, not you dear lady. The sort that see death as a cheap joke that scarcely merits grief much less opposition. NT> NO ONE has advocated euthanasia as a norm for those who do not NT> believe in it. One reason why I'm sad and, far more, angry is that as I write these lines my friend Oliver Wanglie is in court fighting against those who want to kill his wife Helga. She does not want to die. Oliver, her husband of 54-years, does not want her to die. Nor do her two adult children, Ruth and David. But that hasn't stopped the *government* from going to court to have a third-party, an outsider, appointed so Helga can be killed by the euthanasians at Hennepin County Medical Center in Minneapolis. There's a world outside this Echo and even beyond our computers and in that world the glib distinctions about euthanasia (as limited to suicide by some here) and murder (the involuntary euthanasia that is most common in actual practice) isn't worth a wooden nickel. God, how I wish that it were. CURE has not worked in *one* case where the victim said I want to die (a la Janet Adkins). In almost all instances we are working *with* families (like the Wanglies) that do not believe in euthanasia. But anyone who believes that protects you is truly blind. I don't seek to force anyone to think, much less do, any thing. I simply offer free information to those open-minded enough to look at the facts and make up their own minds. If that's *closed-minded* so be it. (I am closed-minded when it comes to someone murdering someone else simply because their so-called "quality-of-life" fails some some Hitlerian standard.) PS--You may imagine that my family does NOT believe in euthanasia. Do you think that got my Dad the blood transfusion he needed *before* he died? Do you really? Whom do you think the State is going after when they murder Helga Wanglie? Volunteers? The medical establishment calls Oliver a kook for wanting his wife to live. But you know, it's surprising how many of us nuts are still out there. I'd fight for just one and if I could reach just one and help protect his or her life, why you [and I don't mean you personally, Nadine] can call me a closed-minded, fear-mongering, pro-life, kook or anything you please. (In fact those who call good folks like my late Dad "vegetables" or equate thier lives to those of dogs needn't spare one kind word for me.) NT> EVERYONE who has spoken of it has spoken for THEMSELVES - the RIGHT NT> to SELF determination. Even in terms of this Echo, that is unclear at best, as one of my unanswered replies to someone else affirmed. NT> Please, get off your soapbox and let this debate (pardon the pun) die NT> a natural death. NT> So, Earl, how about it? Are you willing to shake hands and let this NT> go for now? I value your friendship and want to keep it. We are NT> adults here and I guess what I am saying is I am aware of my boiling NT> point and I prefer to lower NT> the heat then to spill over. NT> I also know that you are capable of making your own decision and may NT> not agree NT> but continue to post. My friend, Nadine, rather than a handshake will you accept a hug? (NT) As I said from the start I do not believe in *debating* euthanasia, any more than I would debate other holocausts. This whole thread was initiated by euthanasia proponents and I posted the grand total of two messages to All to correct a grossly misleading picture of euthanasia as presented by its advocates. (I do not claim any infallibility or psychic powers but ten years in the trenches and in the libraries give me some perspective.) Finally, there may be a few folks who would not want to be murdered if they get too sick in someone else's opinion and they need the Life Support Directive not the "Living Will." So thank you for caring enough to respond. It was not and is not my intention to continue a debate I neither initiated nor desired. The euthanasia issue is, of course, far broader than the discussion here, or even than the actual end stage, i.e., the killing of the victim. For example, a principal source of euthanasia is medical neglect and not infrequently medical malpractice. I shall continue to support human rights as the Spirit moves me, but feel free to reject or even disregard anything I say, while accepting I pray my friendship. Your friend as ever, Earl [YR] ... He that does not learn from history is condemned to relive it. CURE/304-258-LIFE -- Uucp: ..!{decvax,oliveb}!bunker!hcap!hnews!275!429!Earl.Appleby Internet: Earl.Appleby@f429.n275.z1.fidonet.org