Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark Sandrock) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Reincarnation Message-ID: Date: 16 Jun 91 23:59:20 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 149 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu torbakke@loke.idt.unit.no (Torbjoern Bakke) writes: >In article sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark Sandrock) writes: >> "Master, who did sin, this man or his parents, that he was born >> blind?" (John 9:1-2) >How can you say that these verses support the belief that the disciples >believed in reincarnation? Are you implying that they thought the man >was a reincarnation of his parents? (they were still alive) >No - I can not see that this verse in any way supports the idea that >the disciples believed in reincarnation. This question of the disciples' is stating two possibilities for the man's blindness: (1) that it was due to the sin of his parents; or (2) that it was due to his own sin. If the man was indeed born blind due to his own sin, then this sin must have occurred prior to his birth. Unless one wishes to believe that the man had sinned while still in the womb (which someone indeed claimed to me) we are left with the sole alternative that the man had sinned in a prior existence, i.e., reincarnation and/or pre-existence. The fact that neither possibility was correct *in this particular case* does not constitute a denial of these possibilities in other cases. In other words, Jesus did not deny either possibility, but simply stated a third possibility, one which had not occurred to the disciples. Perhaps you would care to give your own interpretation of this passage? >> .... >> There are also the questions to Jesus (Matt 16:14) and to John the Baptist >> (John 1:21) as to whether each was the reincarnation of the Prophet Elias.. >And the answers to these questions where that Jesus was the Messiah, and >that John the Baptist was not the Prophet Elias. These verses does not >in any way support the idea of reincarnation. Again, when faced with questions implying reincarnation, Jesus does not deny the possibility. In fact, Jesus Himself raises the issue at one point: "Who do men say that I am?" And they told Him, John the Baptist, and others say Elijah; and others, one of the prophets. (Mark 8:28) It also appears that Jesus states in Matt 11:14 and 17:11-13 that John the Baptist is in fact the reincarnation of Elias. >> >> "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be >> fulflled." (Matt 24:34) >> >> The meaning here is that all those human souls incarnated in the Jewish >> people during Christ's lifetime who had not accepted his teaching, or had >> even reviled, mocked, and persecuted Him, would be incarnated again on >> earth today at the time of the Last Judgment in order to have to make >> their final decision for or against the Message of God... >No, I do not think so - I believe that we got only one chance (one >lifetime) to accept Jesus as our saviour. I think this is supported >in Hebrews 9:27-28 and John 11. I would rather believe what is >directly supported by the bible than believing something that is >"not denied". I do not follow how John 11 (the raising of Lazarus) supports your view. In the case of Heb 9:27, I would say that if Paul was referring to physical death (rather than spiritual death), then he was mistaken. Once again, I have to ask you then, what is your own interpretation of the cited passage (Matt 24:34)? >> Too, the words of Paul, "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." >> (Gal 6:7) express the knowledge of the Law of Sowing and Reaping, which >> is often carried out over the course of several earth lives. >You don't need several earth lives to verify this verse, it can >easily be done during one earth-life (or even in one day). The >idea of reincarnation and karma comes from Greek philosophers like >Plato, and from "mystical" religions like Hinduism, New Age etc. >It does not come from the bible. Although there well may be cases of sowing and reaping being carried out even instantaneously, I think there are also countless cases where it occurs over the course one or more earth lives. The Konnersreuth case of the stigmatism of Therese Neumann being one obvious example. We all know of the saying, "The mills of God grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly fine!", but what is the meaning of it? The meaning is that sowing and reaping is not necessarily fulfilled within the limited time frame overseen by human beings in a single earth life, but it is always fulfilled just the same. And just because other peoples in other places and times already knew about reincarnation and sowing and reaping (karma) does not mean that these ideas are wrong. What would be the sense of claiming that? Gold is gold, whether a prince or a pauper holds it in his hands! In fact, the knowledge of reincarnation was at one time spreading in Europe, through the many Christian sects who had this belief, and it was only forcibly eradicated during the process of the Inquisition. Perhaps some still want to justify that travesty, but to me it clearly went against God's Will. Might has never made right, and it never shall! >I think the rejection of reincarnation is very legitimate. The >bible tells us that we will die only once (that is - before the >final judgement). Keep in mind that the bible talks about a >first death, and a second death. There is no third, fourth >or fifth death. Once again, past teachings gave mankind that which was most appropriate for his level of spiritual development *at that time*. Today we are in the position to understand far more about the Creation in which we live. And in fact we seriously *need* to do so. >Reincarnation has nothing to do with knowledge, it is a matter of >belief. In my opinion reincarnation is a delusion that lead people >away from the heart of the matter, namely that we can have eternal >life if we believe in Jesus (John 3:16). Sorry, but you cannot possibly say what another person does or does not know. You are only in the position to speak for yourself. I know that reincarnation is true, and I do not find any conflict whatsoever in it with the original teachings of Christ. BTW, John 3:16 says nothing against reincarnation. >Jesus still had many things to say to us before he died, and I am >sure he still has. But - I do not believe that he ever will support >the theory of reincarnation. The laws of karma as we find them in >New Age and eastern religions seem to contradict the fact that it is >not our deeds that save us, it is the grace of God. Once again, I believe that Jesus Himself must have spoken about sowing and reaping, and this is why it is also stated by Paul. If some want to call sowing and reaping by the name karma, I have no problem with that. It's not "new age" -- it's there in the Bible. It's just that we haven't troubled ourselves to learn more about it hitherto. The love and the grace of God exist to be quite sure, but they in no way cancel or negate the need to fulfill His Laws and His Justice. Love and justice cannot be separated, they are ultimately one. Regards, Mark Sandrock -- BITNET: sandrock@uiucscs Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Internet: sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu Chemical Sciences Computing Services Voice: 217-244-0561 505 S. Mathews Ave., Urbana, IL 61801