Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!uunet!ckgp!thomas
From: thomas@ckgp.UUCP (Michael Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.ai.philosophy
Subject: Re: IF IT DOES NOT PASS TT IT IS NOT INTELLIGENT????
Summary: So you saying the test is as bad one????
Message-ID: <608@ckgp.UUCP>
Date: 21 Jun 91 22:15:32 GMT
References: <9106200231.AA06339@lilac.berkeley.edu>
Organization: CKGP Assoc. Inc. Birmingham, MI
Lines: 68

In article <9106200231.AA06339@lilac.berkeley.edu>, ISSSSM@NUSVM.BITNET (Stephen Smoliar) writes:
>Since I do not have the paper in front of me, I shall have to rely on my
>memory.  However, the reading of the paper that I recall does not quite
>align with Minsky's (although it is very close).  Unless I am mistaken,
>Turing uses his opening paragraphs to argue that it is a waste of time
>to consider a question as naive as "Can a machine think?"  Therefore,
>in the interest of being more productive, he introduces his "Imitation
>Game" as a more realistic arena for investigation.  In other words he
>replaces the intelligence question with that of whether or not a machine
>could play the Imitation Game well enough that the other player would not
>recognize it as a machine.  He then devotes the rest of the paper to arguing
>why it is feasible that this would eventually be the case.
>===============================================================================
  
  Now are you saying the it is true that "it is a waste of time to
  consider a question as naive as "Can a machine think?"" I know you
  are quoting the paper, but isn't that why we are talking about this?
  I mean maybe it is me but I do not think that it is naive to think 
  that a computer will not be able to think. May this is just my deffinition
  on think, but still aren't the days of turning's AI a little outdated
  to compare to the goals and ideas of AI today?

  So are we all in agreement that the TT test is for something other
  than AI, or just divisions of AI (NLP -- Not even NLP really). I
  see no value for the TT test today. 8^) Today the problems of AI are
  more defined, so to speak, they are more qualified, so that we can
  not just simply say that computer intelligence is impossible so let
  us shot for the next best thing, modeling human behavior. 8^) I know
  that there is alot more going on in my head than just modeled behavoir
  and alot of it we can establish in a computer. 

  POINT: If the TT is to measure the computer's Imitation ability then
         why is the TT used (or referenced to being used) on AI things?
         I know that the goal of the AI stuff I do is NOT Imitation but
         rather emulation. (to equal or surpass the model) And if the
         mean buy which I do that means having an intelligent machine
         that can still answer a complex math question, and not lie, and
         try to fool everyone it interacts with then I must say forget
         the TT -- Don't I?  

  I can see the point of, well if the computer is intellgent then it
  will know it is playing the imitation game and will create a plan
  and do certain things to accomplish that goal of winning the game.
  But for this side of the coin the problem is that instead of your
  goal being intelligence the goal must become imitation, and even
  if you say your goal is intelligence you still have to keep the
  problems of imitation in mind....

  INTELLIGENCE: I know that it is hard to come up with a definition
  of intelligence. But intelligence isn't really a thing but combination
  of ability (application of some knowledge) and awareness (having
  some purpose, goal, knowledge that your doing something and why.)
  |o| - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -|o|
  |o| So if the goal is to pass the test, win the game and that  |o|
  |o| application is imitation of a person, and the knowledge is |o|
  |o| the knowledge of the world and people, then a computer     |o|
  |o| will never be intelligent because it atleast at this point |o|
  |o| can not experience the world... so then only an android    |o|
  |o| or robot, with a sensory system could pass the TT.         |o|
  |o| I personally don't feel that this is true...               |o|
  |o| - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -|o|

  Thanks for listening.... 8^)

-- 
Thank you,
Michael Thomas
(..uunet!ckgp!thomas)