Path: utzoo!telecom-request Date: Fri, 21 Jun 91 11:07:35 EDT From: "Dennis G. Rears (FSAC)" Newsgroups: comp.dcom.telecom Subject: Re: Speaking in Defense of ThriftyTel (was Fighting Hackers) Message-ID: Organization: TELECOM Digest Sender: Telecom@eecs.nwu.edu Approved: Telecom@eecs.nwu.edu X-Submissions-To: telecom@eecs.nwu.edu X-Administrivia-To: telecom-request@eecs.nwu.edu X-Telecom-Digest: Volume 11, Issue 476, Message 7 of 8 Lines: 68 Kurt Guntheroth writes: > John Higdon says: >> Mr. Barnum has all the quotes from Ms. Bigley that the {LA Times} >> article had, which essentially contain the circular argument that it >> costs money to upgrade to FGD and why should Thrifty have to spend >> that money on account of "thugs and criminals" while whining about all >> the losses suffered at the hands of the hackers. Thrifty's technique >> looks more like a profit center than hacker "prevention". > Let's suppose ThriftyTel is deliberately baiting hackers (though using > older equipment because it is cheap sounds more reasonable to me). > How can this be considered more reprehensible than stealing network > services in the first place? I find it quite just that a company > should hang hackers with their own rope. If ThriftyTel was posting > the access codes on pirate BBS's, this might be going a bit too far on > the entrappment side, but there is no evidence this is happening. Have you ever heard of an attractive nuisance? Granted it may be stretching a point, but hey we are talking about California? :-) It could be argued that ThriftyTel has created an attractive nuisance by not securing their systems in accordance with industry standards; just like the homeowner who does not build a secure enough fence to keep the little cretins out of his/her pool. > And whoever asked whether ThriftyTel was inducing minors to enter into > an unenforceable contract, or an ex-post-facto contract, this may be > true. The hackers do have the option of refusing the contract and > letting ThriftyTel make good on its threat to initiate criminal > proceedings if it can. Probably most hackers, caught crouched over > the body with the smoking gun in their hand, and with the knowledge of > their guilt in mind, are reluctant to test their luck in court. Contract, hell it is extortion. As any first year law student could tell you the following must exist to be a contract: o legality of object # OK o mutual consideration # OK o contractual capacity # OK; minors create # a voidable contract o manifestion of consent (offer/acceptance) # NO o meeting of the minds The hacker is not aware of the offer (tariff), there is no manifestion of consent, and there is not meeting of the minds. Another point, California has the Uniform Commercial Code, thus the statue of frauds would apply. This means the contract (including acceptance) must be in writing for amount of over $500.00. One last point if they are saying a contract was formed, it becomes a civil matter only not a criminal. Either it is a contract in all cases or a contract in no cases. If they decide it is a contract they have to sue for breach of contract; they can't have criminal charges too. They must be consistent. BTW, I don't approve of what the hackers/phreakers are doing either, but ThriftyTel response is just as abusive of the laws as hackers/phreakers. We are still innocent until proven guilty, and there is no way I can tolerate any company or govertment "official" altering this. dennis