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From: gmk@falstaff.mae.cwru.edu (Geoff Kotzar)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: novice wants advice
Message-ID: <35902@mimsy.umd.edu>
Date: 21 Jun 91 20:12:39 GMT
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In article <35870@mimsy.umd.edu> shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov (Michael A. Shaffer ) writes:
#
#I am a real novice (I have joined NRA but I don't yet own a gun and I haven't
#fired one since I was I child) and I am looking for some advice.
#
#I am interested in many areas of firearms use and collecting. I am intrigued
#by the many old military rifles that seem to be available esp. Mauser bolt
#actions. From what I have read it seems like a Mauser (late 1800's to early
#1900's) might be a good place to start collecting. The info I have seen
#indicates that the 7x57mm and 8mm would be good for deer hunting (another
#thing that I am getting interested in) and I think that ammo is still
#available for them.
#
#Questions...
#
#1. Are the 7mm & 8mm Mausers reasonable for this type of hunting?
#2. Would these used rifles be safe and reasonably accurate?
#     (I would only by rifles in NRA very good or better condition
#       and have them checked by a gunsmith)
#3. Which versions would y'all recommend?
#4. Any general advice?
#
#Since I am interested in collecting so I want to be up on local, state and
#fed. laws also especially since I am interested in full autos like the tommy.
#What is the best source for authoritative info on this?
#
#				mike
#		shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov

Back in April David Grimme had asked for similar info regarding
the use of old military mausers in 7x57 for deer hunting. I had
prepared this shortly afterward but did not submit it because of
hardware problems. I hope it will be of some use to you. Here goes:

My friends and I own and shoot nine different models of the
mauser rifles mostly 98k's (in the CZ-24 version) but also a
93 and 95 all of which are in 7x57 and a pair of 96's in 6.5x55.
The only drawback to the 95's and 96's is that they are full
length rifles and that means they are LONG, 50 in. overall. If you
still-hunt in thick timber and have to do some snap shooting the
length could be a disadvantage. However, my 96 is so nice that
I am planning to do some hunting out of state this year just so I
can use it; Ohio requires shotguns or handguns but no rifles.

Now in a more general vein:

1) With regard to your choice of cartridge, the 7x57 has been doing
what you want for almost a century and with out the benefit of
our first rate bullets like the Nosler. If you need more information
in this area you might look at a book by Finn Aagaard called "Hunting
Rifles and Cartridges" from the NRA (PB1N3147, $14.95). This is a
truly excellent book; Finn Aagaard's experience and common sense make
this subject very clear and his recommendations invaluable. There was also
an article in Guns & Ammo in Feb. of this year by Ross Seyfried titled
"The 6.5's Do It All". What he says about the 6.5's applies to the 7's
and most of it to the 8mm as well. The only problem with using the 8mm
for hunting might be the narrow selection of hunting bullets -not bad
but narrower than for the other two.

2) As far as practical accuracy with these military rifles is concerned
it is surprizingly good. Of the nine rifles to which I have access, ALL
have oversized bores. My 7mm which uses .284 bullets has a groove dia.
of .2865; my 6.5 uses .264 bullets but has a .2662 groove diameter. I
have not been able to do better than about 3 inches at 100 yds. with
the 7mm consistently. This is mostly due to the type of sights on this
rifle. The 6.5, however, will hold a 2 inch group off the bench at 150
yards. This again a product of the type of sights.

3) On the topic of the military sights, our 98k's (shorter rifle, 24
inch barrel) all have the inverted-V front sight and a V-notch rear.
No one in our group has been able to make this combination work well.
The 96's have a square topped front with a U-notch rear. This is an
odd combination but if you have the time they work well, at least for
me they do. By deepening the U-notch and squaring it off some it
works well for faster shots. 

Even if you can work with the military sight combination, there is 
still the question of your zero. My 6.5 with the rear sight all the
way down still prints 6 inches high at 150 yards. This worked out to
perfection with one foot square black on white targets. The sharp
edges of the front sight combined with the sharp edges of the target
provided an ideal sight picture and with a six o'clock hold the bullets
landed right in the center of the bull.

Some form of supplementary sights will probably be necessary. Peep
sights would work but there are not a lot of choices any more. Scopes
present a special problem on these military rifles. The bolt handles,
even the turned down variety, exit the bolt in the radial direction
and will not clear a scope mounted on the receiver. You could have a
new bolt handle welded into place if you prefer rear mounted scopes. 
Both peep sights and the receiver mounted scope will require permanent
alterations from the military configuration. The alternative is to use
a forward mounted scope. B-Square makes a mount that replaces the rear
sight and allows the use of long-eye-relief pistol scopes. There are
three problems we have found. The height of the mount is greater than
necessary which makes getting a consistent sight picture from shot to
shot difficult. The mount could be reduced almost 1/4 inch and we are
in the process of making this modification. The pistol scopes require
consistent position of the eye behind the eyepiece because they have
the parallax set for 50 yds usually. There are pistol scopes available
which are adjustable for parallax. The last problem is with the eye
relief envelope on the pistol scopes. Some do not allow you get close
enough for comfortable use on rifles. If you can live with the reducd
magnification the Burris Gunsite Scopes are perfect for this applica-
tion. I can heartily recommend them but they only come in 1.5x and
2.75x. I am using one of these on a .458 and it works very well. I have
the model with the German Post and it performs well especially for wooded
areas where the heavy posts stand out -the German Post has one heavy
central post coming up from below which ends in a point and two heavy
sidebars which are not connected to the vertical post; the sight picture
feels more like that of pistol iron sights than like a rifle scope- but
for all round use I would recommend the duplex reticle. Burris's inter-
mediate eye-relief scopes will work but they provide too much magnifi-
cation for most hunting applications since they start at 7X.

4) The last point has to do with the military triggers. Some are very
good but most are only passable: they allow accurate work only if you
have the time. The Timney triggers are a fairly inexpensive replacement
and will provide you with a good quality modern trigger. They come in
several models, the least expensive is about $25.00 from Natchez. We
put one of these on my friend's rifle and it took only about 20-30
minutes to complete the job. It fit the receiver perfectly; we had
to enlarge only slightly the opening in the trigger guard plate for
the trigger. The majority of the time was spent opening the trigger
mortice in the stock. A set of palm chisels really eases the job.
Without them the installation time might run an hour. It is adjust-
able from 2-4 lbs and even at the factory maximum setting it made a
really big difference. They offer a more refined model for about an
additional $12.00 which has been hand lapped and if I were going to
replace another trigger I would opt for this one. If I remember cor-
rectly it is not available for as wide a variety of rifles though.

With the combination of the better trigger and a 4x pistol scope my
one friend is able to shoot 1-1.5 inch groups at 100 yards when he
concentrates on sitting behind the scope consistently. The combination
of the too long eye relief of his Burris  pistol scope and the high
scope mount really requires that the shooter do his part. Do not let
this put you off. With the right combination of components you can turn
one into a fairly quick handling, accurate hunting rifle. Given the
current price of these rifles, you will probably tie up more money
in the scope, mount and trigger than in the rifle.

Is it worth the effort and money? I think so and so do my friends
but then again we have never been wound very tight.

Good luck with your hunt,
Geoff Kotzar