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From: jon@turing.acs.virginia.edu (Jon Gefaell)
Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
Subject: Re: French kissing - safe or unsafe?
Message-ID: <1991Jun25.173427.21341@cs.ucla.edu>
Date: 25 Jun 91 16:51:42 GMT
References: <1991Jun23.021608.3250@cs.ucla.edu> <1991Jun24.124202.26280@cs.ucla.edu>
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In article <1991Jun24.124202.26280@cs.ucla.edu> jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:
>In article <1991Jun23.021608.3250@cs.ucla.edu> AS.DLH@Forsythe.Stanford.EDU 
>(David Hatt 5-0083) writes:
>>
>>A friend and I had a "disagreement" over whether there is such a
>>thing as safe sex with someone who is HIV+.  He said that any sex
>>with an HIV+ individual is inherently unsafe.  I disagreed with him.

The trick here is the inherently unsure matter of HIV infection. Since the
Virus can be present, but not detectable for various periods of time, then
you cannot rely on a negative test as conclusive proof that your partner is
not infected. Additionaly, even if seroconversion had a definate timetable,
you could not know that your partner would/did contract the virus out of
synch with the testing. For these reasons at least, I think that you must
treat EVERY PARTNER as if they were in fact HIV+. This means a singular
approach to 'Safer Sex'.

I'd call 'Safer Sex' the type of sex that involves direct physical contact,
and the presence, though not the exchange of bodily fluids such as saliva,
semen, etc... I'd call 'Safe Sex' phone sex, non mutual masturbation, etc..

So, I suppose I agree with you, Sex with ANY idividual is inherently 'unsafe'
but no more so with a person who's HIV status is confirmed positive, than for
a person who's HIV status is 'assumed' negative as a result of testing.

Do note however, that 'Safe' and 'Safer' Sex practices are NOT HIV exclusive.
There are plenty of diseases that one can contract from sexual activity, and
though HIV/AIDS is uncurable, and deadly, there are plenty of others that are
in the range from deadly to inconvenient... While Oral Sex may not be a  
significant tranmission vector for HIV, it is certainly a well known vector
for other diseases.

A Safe/r Sex strategy must take all this into account.

BTW, I'm getting tested in an hour. My ex-boyfriends wifes girlfriend/lover
(whom he has had unprotected sex with a number of times) just tested HIV+
and so.... To the test I must go. My Safe/r sex strategy allowed oral sex,
but not swallowing (though that seems mostly safe as well, IMHO) but required
a condom for Anal sex. Alas, I broke both these rules.... I've swallowed, and
once allowed him to enter me without a condom. It's too late for regrets, and
guilt will get me no wheres. Scary, but... 

What helps me to think about is that I'm not 'guilty' of anything. I may have
made the wrong decisions a few times... But so have a lot of Brothers and
Sisters. I may have known better, but... Many wonderful people have died a
horrible death from this plague, and I'm no more 'innocent' or 'worthy' or
whatever than they were. This plague takes without hesitation or discrimination.

Oh well, Peace and Happiness be with you all the days of your life!

>
>I'd disagree too.  Phone sex, for example, would be completely and
>unquestionably safe.  You may be disagreeing over the definition of "sex".
>
>>I countered that you would take extra steps if a person was
>>positive and that he would never know that actual HIV status of a
>>person he slept with.
>
>It's probably safe to assume that someone is HIV+ if they tell you they
>are.
>
>>We did agree on the dangerously unsafe practices and there was one
>>area where we didn't agree:  Assuming no cuts and sores in the
>>mouth, is french kissing safe or unsafe?
>
>That's been hotly debated.  I think there were some papers about it at the
>conference in Florence.  I think it's reasonable to say that oral
>transmission is possible, but highly unlikely.  Gonorrhea and syphillis,
>for example, can be transmitted orally, but its not common.  The last I heard, 
>there were no reported cases of HIV transmission via oral contact when both
>parties had healthy mouths.  There have been some cases of tranmission
>through oral sex, but in those cases the recipients had gum problems.
>
>There are lots of safe sex practices that I have no problem with, but
>giving up kissing would be really difficult.  It's a good thing that the
>risk is so low that it can usually be ignored. 
>-- 
>Jack Hamilton         jfh@netcom.com         apple!netcom!jfh

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