Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnews!cbnews!military From: bxr307@csc1.anu.edu.au Newsgroups: sci.military Subject: Re: German F-4 variant Message-ID: <1991Jun22.040222.29251@cbnews.cb.att.com> Date: 22 Jun 91 04:02:22 GMT References: <1991Jun21.013542.12347@cbnews.cb.att.com> Sender: military@cbnews.cb.att.com (william.a.thacker) Organization: Computer Services, Australian National University Lines: 71 Approved: military@att.att.com From: bxr307@csc1.anu.edu.au In article <1991Jun21.013542.12347@cbnews.cb.att.com>, dthompso@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (David G Thompson) writes: > From: dthompso@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (David G Thompson) > I'm curious about an alleged German variant of the F-4 Phantom > which was included in Avalon Hill's simulation game "Flight > Leader" (1986). Admittedly this is not the most authoritative > source, but since the people at A.H. usually seem to do their > homework pretty well, I assume it probably has at least *some* > basis in reality. [...] > Can somebody shed some light on this? Is this just a product of > the game designers' imaginations, was the ICE a stillborn idea, > or does this Luftwaffe super-Phantom actually exist? If so, does > it really approach the Eagle's performance? > This aircraft was a proposed upgrade to the West German F4E's by adding new engines and the same radar as the F15. However due to cost considerations it was not carried on with. Instead the decision was made to go with the EFA (European Fighter Aircraft), which is a next generation air-superiority aircraft, similar in concept to the F15, in that its meant to be very manouvreable and carry a quite effective radar coupled with BVR (Beyond Visual Range) missiles of the AIM120 AMRAAM type and the ASRAAM (which appears about to be abandoned now anyway). Basically it looks a bit like a cross between the F16 (it has an intake set well back from the nose under the fuselage) and the Taiwanese IDF (both have twin engines with a single central tail). The most distinctive feature is the way in which the intakes "smile" (curve upwards at their outer edges) in a "U" shape, giving the aircraft a distinctive anthromorphic shape. Interestingly at the moment the plans call for the aircraft to mount an infra-red search and track device in front of the cockpit. Something which was abandoned on the US ATF design due to costs. > Finally, as a follow-on question, if the Germans *don't* have > this Phantom-on-steroids available, isn't it about time they > started thinking about acquiring reasonably up-to-date air- > superiority fighters and/or interceptors? These former-DDR MiG- > 29 Fulcrums of which they seem to be disposing so casually > probably could out-fight anything in the current Luftwaffe > inventory (other than the hypothetical ICE), couldn't they? See the above comments about EFA. Its still very much in the pipeline at the moment. The prototype has not yet even flown. However it was felt back in the early 1980's when the F4 upgrade was proposed that would be cheaper in the long run to introduce a new aircraft, rather than try and keep the old airframes (which by then were already starting to get a little long in the tooth) going. BTW When suggesting that the MiG29 could outfly anything available to the Luftwaffe you should be careful. Pilot quality and doctrine are still a very big determinant of how well an aircraft fights. The Soviet methodology of close ground control over fighter aircraft means that in all likelihood any Russian pilots would not be allowed to make full use of what their mounts can achieve. Presuming of course their training is up to the standard of the Luftwaffe/NATO air forces. Which is something I doubt. -- Brian Ross -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If we got it so wrong in the Middle East yesterday, what makes you think we are going to get it right this time?" Arthur Schlesinger --------------------------------------------------------------------------