Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: llo@nuchat.sccsi.com (Larry Overacker) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: The New Birth Message-ID: Date: 22 Jun 91 04:59:52 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: Houston Public Access UNIX Lines: 42 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article NU169273@vm1.nodak.edu writes: >Anyways, my point is Nicodemus only >acknowledged Jesus as a teacher come from God. He HAD NOT acknowledged >Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior like a born again Christian >has. Nicodemus had never truly seen himself as lost and deserving of hell. >I believe Nicodemus was being honest with himself in that he was missing This concept of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior is very recent in Church history and is NOT found in the Bible. Yes, the Bible speaks of Jesus as our Lord and Savior, but the commonly accepted born again experience commonly promoted in Protestant churches is an not based upon direct biblical evidence. >My other point is that salvation is NOT a tingly feeling. >Being born again is not the after effect of conversion. Conversion >is being born again. Trusting in a feeling (rather than This is also not strictly supported by John's text. Indeed, you must be born again. No Orthodox or Catholic or Protestant Christian would differ on that point; however, Jesus then relates to us just what it means to be born again. It is to be born of water and of the Spirit. In the Orthodox view, this means the inner transformation that God effects in us through the sacraments of Baptism and Chrismation (laying on of hands). Being born again has been understood by most Christians over the past 2000 years to mean exactly this. Other meanings may apply, but alternate readings and interpretations of Scripture should not be described as normative. The practice of millions of Christians over the millenia that have sought to follow Christ with all their being are not defective simply because they did not have a 20th century evangelical protestant born again conversion experience. >repenting to God the Father and placing all your faith in the >Lord Jesus Christ to save you) IS NOT Bible salvation. >I'm not suggesting what Michael was trying to say in this last paragraph. >I'm just clarifying, here. -- ============================================================================ Larry Overacker Art is not a mirror held up to reality, but a hammer with which to shape it. bertolt brecht