Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!aramis.rutgers.edu!athos.rutgers.edu!christian From: tblake@bingvaxu.cc.binghamton.edu (Thomas Blake) Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian Subject: Re: Lesbian/Gay PRIDE day, suggestions... Message-ID: Date: 23 Jun 91 01:56:22 GMT Sender: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu Organization: State University of New York at Binghamton Lines: 100 Approved: christian@aramis.rutgers.edu In article kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes: >And this brings to mind an important question: why should Christian wish to >interfere in what non-Christians do? If non-Christians do things which you >consider sinful, but which do not involve any unwilling (or incompetent) >individuals, what is your place to speak? First a disclaimer, I do not necessarily espouse the beliefs I am about to outline. I am merely attempting to answer the question. Many Christians consider homosexual behaviour to be sinful. They also believe that while sinful behaviour may be forgiven, it requires that the sinner repent from that behaviour. Rallying for the acceptance of homosexual behaviour from this view would be encouraging sinners to not repent of their sins. If we assume that non-repentent sinners are damned to Hell for all of eternity, then such a movement systematically damns a large number of individuals who, (if they repented), need not be damned. Christians as a general rule don't like the idea of anyone going to Hell, so a Christian holding the above beliefs may feel moved to save these people from damnation. Following this system of beliefs, they would have to oppose efforts to promote the acceptance of homosexuality. So, you may find that Christians who oppose you, do so out of love. A number of persons feel quite strongly that I should observe the Sabbath from Friday evening to Saturday evening. They quite sincerely believe that I may be damned for failing to do so. They seek out of love to save my soul from damnation. I can't fault them for it. I personally believe differently, but I will not prompt them to give up their Sabbath observance. They feel it would be a sin for them to do so, and I agree that it would be a sin for them to do so, since they believe it would be. In the United Methodist Church, there are a couple of movements. The first movement I became aware of was the "Reconciling Congregations" movement. This movement seeks to reconcile congregations who have been divided over the issue of homosexuality. A second movement if I remember the name is the "Transforming Congregations" movement. This movement seeks to accept homosexuals, but not homosexuality, (love the sinner, hate the sin), they believe that with propper counseling, Christian love, etc. homosexuals may be transformed. Neither movement is officially sanctioned by the UMC that I know of. In my mind, we have spent far too much time fighting over the issue of homosexuality in the church. One thing I know, all homosexuals (celibate or not) are sinners, and all heterosexuals (celibate or not) are also sinners. I do not know if homosexuality is a sin or not. (The Bible states several times that it is). One thing I do know is a sin though, our constant fighting over this matter. Through our fighting we only further divide the body of Christ. We as the church should not be tearing down our brothers and sisters, but (rather) building them up. Let us not be a stumbling stone to them. If they are right with God, then God will guide them. It may be that God may guide some away from homosexuality, it may be that God will affirm their homosexuality. It's not for me to say. I don't recall Jesus ever saying that we are to turn one another from our sins. (He does give us instruction on what do if we feel our brother or sister has sinned *against us*, but that is a very different matter.) Jesus does tell us several times that we are not to judge one another, and if we do judge one another, then the same standards will be used by God to judge us. Jesus also calls us to love one another as he loved (loves) us. Those of us who support our homosexual brothers and sisters often accuse those who oppose them of being hypocritical. ("Who are they to judge?" "Do they call that 'Christian Love'?" etc.) But when we in turn judge them we are every bit as guilty as they are, (if not moreso). I personally feel that we should stop judging each other, and work on that matter of loving one another. Jesus tells us to make of all disciples, but he also tells us that the way people will know that we are his disciples is by our love for one another. I personally don't feel that this bickering gains us a single disciple, (it only alienates disciples), and an outsider might be very hard pressed to find evidence of our love for one another. Tom Blake SUNY-Binghamton [I'm not going to make any substantive comments on this, despite a great desire to do so, as I'm trying to use my time to reduce the backlog. However you may be doing your conservative brethren a disservice in characterizing their views. The concept that a sin must be repented of in order to be forgiven is one of the major ideas that Luther opposed during the Reformation. What if you forget one? What if you are wrong about something? Many (most?) of those who believe homosexuality is sinful also believe that if a homosexual relies upon God for his salvation, he will not be disappointed. I believe the same is true of worship on Saturday. I've detected things in some postings that imply that salvation may be at risk. But I have no reason to think that the majority of Sabbath-keepers really believe that failure to worship on Saturday will cause someone who trusts in God to be damned. --clh]