Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!mips!dimacs.rutgers.edu!rutgers!mcdchg!ddsw1!learn
From: learn@ddsw1.MCS.COM (William Vajk)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: I Accuse (the New Gestappo...)
Message-ID: <1991Jun27.041611.13323@ddsw1.MCS.COM>
Date: 27 Jun 91 04:16:11 GMT
References: <1991Jun16.171754.24492@athena.cs.uga.edu> <1991Jun18.023039.10671@ddsw1.MCS.COM> <1991Jun19.003103.16932@deadzone.uucp>
Organization: Dares No Organization Like Dis Organization
Lines: 178

In article <1991Jun19.003103.16932@deadzone.uucp> Marcelo Gallardo writes:

>learn@ddsw1.MCS.COM (William Vajk) writes:

>>Student judiciaries are almost always rubber stamps for administration wishes. 
>	Then again, some might be used so that you can be judged by your peers.

Since you're talking about 'might be' one might also be better judged by the 
man in the moon. How about a specific from you on this please. Fence
straddling statements can hurt you more than you realize.

>	No, sometimes these powers are established by the student body
>	voting. 

Why sure. The student body always has authority to overturn the
administration's demands. As I recall there are two primary models
for universities. In one, the students control the functions, and the
administration is responsible to the student council. Faculty and staff
are hired and retained at the whim and will of the student council.

The second is the conventional model we see here in the United States today, 
with a semi-permanent administration and tenured faculty, stereotypically
under modest influence of alumni with power to withdraw substantial funding.

Please explain to me how your claim is valid, and specifically where. Further,
please be sure to include whether or not the administration has a veto power
over the powers you maintain are autogenous.

>	Did you ever do something wrong when you were a kid? My guess is
>	yes (everybody has). Did your parents punish you, regardless of
>	whether it was aginst the "law"? When you do something "wrong"
>	there should be some sort of punishment. 

I have followed in my parent's footsteps in this regard. Punishment has
been the result of anger, sometimes not in keeping with a realistic
view of events, but humanly reactive. With misbehaviors of consequence
I also have followed in my parents footsteps. I have never punished. I
have taught real lessons. The outcome is pretty decent. We learn thus not
to be overtly offensive. And as it is with society in general, the larger
"crimes" invoke a different set of rules. And that, it seems to me, is part
of the problem at athena. The primary importance attached to the case we're
discussing seems to be that the student angered the system administrator. It
is, at best, an immature approach to a serious problem. And at worse, it 
appears to be a failure to live up to the tradition of educating students
in the truest sense.

Face it. Anyone can "educate" a bright student who is socially well adjusted,
is well rounded, and has a good attitude. No magic at all. It is an altogether
different matter to educate the average (or below average) student. You're
at Princeton, a town and campus I know like the back of my hand. Univ of Ga
is an altogether different matter, I assure you.

Covington wrote:

>>>My own feeling is that 2 quarters' suspension is exactly right. 

I wrote:

>>YOU don't think? Who the hell appointed you to make this decision ? 
	
>	I don't understand what you are saying. If he is a dedicated
>	student, he'll return to college and finish his education. Along
>	with a diploma, he will also have learned (or hopefully have
>	learned) a little bit about life as well. On a side note, who
>	the hell appointed you? Oh and to answer your question, the
>	University appointed him ;-).

You bring up a good point, though perhaps not the one you were thinking.

Is it all right to push students who aren't quite so dedicated as to withstand
two quarters suspension out the door ? At a state university, is it mandate
that all students be dedicated ? And if maturity is required, are you
suggesting, as Covington has, that it is better found outside the academic
environment ? If so, why do we have college students at all ? From what you're
saying here, all would be better off learning about "real life" somewhere else.

On a side note, I am here to ask the questions which are embarassing to you
and to Covington. It is a dirty job, but someone must do it. You fellows are
doing a lousy job of policing yourselves. Aren't you gald you asked.

>>I accuse you of seeing very little past the precious computer system which 
>>you see "attacked." 
	
>	You don't seem to understand that this "precious computer
>	system" isn't the students to do with as he wishes. The student
>	was GIVEN access to it so he could use it as an aide to his
>	college education. Not so he could give the SysAdmin something
>	to do, or something else to worry about. 

I see. Only technical errors are permitted on your computer, and perhaps
Covington's. Where is the demand that student's be 'well rounded' or are they
to leave their humanity outside the door to the CS department in the umbrella
stand just because you do ?

It is a shame that you're missing a large part of the main thrust of my
discussion and getting wound up in petty details not worthy of a moment.

The student must have computer access as part and parcel of the total
educational process, not as some mystical aide to his college eduaction.
What you are saying MIGHT have been true 20 or more years ago, but is not
valid any longer. What you are saying here supports the special priesthood
of computer administrators (they used to be called operators.)

Please don't think for a moment that in this real world environment you're
about to pull the old pranks out and replay them. The system administrator,
as well as the entire university faculty, is there to serve the needs of the
student. Without that student and his needs, the universities would, at best,
be research facilities vieing for a share of a much smaller marketplace. The
student is your primary consumer. 

>	The student has been noticed, and dealt with. There are plenty
>	of places for a college student to go if he needs help adjusting
>	to college life, and "maturing". 

I ask you more directly, is it your opinion that there are better places
to mature than the academic environment ? Please tell us now so many
future students can save time, money, and energy, by going there instead.

>>Once more you are more concerned about what others might think. What 
>>business is it of yours to be concerned with anything other than doing
>>those things necessary to do justice to this student.
	
>	Once more you neglect the fact that this student hasn't done the
>	things necessary to show that he belongs in a university
>	environment, much less the Internet.

I assume he was admitted to the university using some selection criteria. It
is a given he earned the right to be there. 

I have other opinions about who doesn't belong on the internet. One such
sort writes to system administrators complaining within an hour after an 
article asking difficult questions hits the net.

>>Those who believed he should be expelled are doubtless undereducated
>>in human respect and understanding.

>	Maybe so, but we're dealing with computers, respect and
>	understanding for them are important as well.

I respect the capabilities of some machines. The day I have respect
for any machine, feh. Machines were invented for us to use. There are
some few who actually love machines. I am proud to number myself among
those who doesn't. A computer is, after all, only an evolutionary 
descendent to Pascal's adding wheel of 1642. What makes a computer,
in your opinion, any more sacred than a bumper jack ? I think I'll go
respect an inclined plaine for a while. Sheesh.....

>	For someone with so much hype about human compasion and
>	consideration, I would have thought that you would give the
>	System Administrator a little of the respect that you speak of.

The system administrator is supposed to know better. He is paid to
know better, and to behave rationally.

>	I suppose that you never considered that the SysAdmin is also a
>	human. 

Of course he's not. He is the enemy. We has discovered the enemy, and
he is us. On the other hand, the system administrator has had no personal
harm done to him, but was part of the system causing personal harm to
another. And I have caused the system administrator no personal harm either,
yet. But it is possible that the information from this thread will find its
way to upper segments of state and university administration before all is
done.

>	OK, we'll see in 2 semesters what the result of this SysAdmin's
>	decision (why do we keep discussing him, it was the STUDENTS
>	that passed "sentence").

Hardly. His name remains an unknown, so once this discussion is closed
there will be no further information.

And finally, perhaps you feel reassured that the students passed sentence
in a fair and unbiased mode, the only way justice can be achieved, but
I am far from satisfied that such is the case. I believe the rubber stamp
is in good working order.

Bill Vajk