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From: learn@piroska.uchicago.edu (William  Vajk (igloo))
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Was Bill Kennedy Really Out Of Line?
Message-ID: <1991Jun27.134611.16787@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: 27 Jun 91 13:46:11 GMT
References: <1991Jun26.132906.3116@sulaco.Lonestar.ORG>
Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (NewsMistress)
Reply-To: learn@piroska.uchicago.edu (William  Vajk (igloo))
Organization: Dares No Organization Like Dis Organization
Lines: 119

In article <1991Jun26.132906.3116@sulaco.Lonestar.ORG> Allen Gwinn writes:

>In article <telecom11.488.3@eecs.nwu.edu> Mike Godwin writes:

>Perhaps, then, you would share with us exactly what that timetable
>was since you seem to have information that those of us right here in
>the middle of it don't have.

It isn't worth the effort to me to put it all together in an exact date
sequence, but as an overview, here's what happened :

1) Rich Andrews notices the E-911 file on jolnet and starts having
   trouble sleeping because his system, his hobby, is caught up in
   something illegal.

2) Rich worries over this for some days, and after discussing what to do 
   with Len (this is Rich's rendition) he sends a copy to Charlie Boykin
   at system attctc (formerly killer.) Charlie is an AT&T employee. Rich
   asks Charlie to send it to the appropriate folks for review/disposition
   of the legalities.

3) Nothing happens for some months.

4) SE Bell contacts Rich and says they lost the copy of the file, did he
   still have it and if so, could he please send them another copy. Rich
   does, and he complies.

5) Traffic is traced to and from Rich's system, jolnet, implicating the
   Atlanta 3 and Neidorf at U of Missouri. The investigation takes on
   a two front posture.

6) The search of U of Missouri computers turns up Rose and login.c

7) Search warrant against Rose is executed.

8) Rich Andrews and his system are subject of subpoenas, a series apparently,
   for grand jury activity in Chicago. This note appears in a public record
   in the affidavit to "search" jolnet. Rich had been cooperating with the
   authorities when they determined the information they were getting wasn't
   coming fast enough, so they opted to seize his property although there
   wasn't anything in the affidavit implicating Andrews with any criminality.
   This seizure and subsequent activity by the United States Secret Service
   ended up losing Rich his job and he has had to take on consulting
   postitions when his preferred employment is a regular check and some level
   of financial security as he has a wife and five children counting on him.

9) Rose is charged. All charges concern AT&T source code for which he
   has not paid a license fee. No charges of theft were made at the
   federal level.

A) Riggs, Darden, and Grant plead guilty in Atlanta to charges associated
   with the E-911 file and there are some agreements to bear witness against
   Neidorf in his upcoming trial in Chicago.

B) Neidorf trial.

C) Rose takes an AT&T/Interactive job at Naperville, is arrested and charged,
   his equipment (newer stuff) is seized.

D) Rose plea bargains.

>Perhaps you can provide us with the "facts" to "weigh" and show Bill
>how he can see the light without "speculation".

This little tidbit has to do with the second shutdown of a machine which
was supported by AT&T and was offering some pretty nice services. In the
first rendition it was called 'killer.' In the latter it was renamed
attctc at corporate insistance. Allen, you and Kennedy and John Hough
live in the region. In fact, it had come to my attention a couple of years
ago thet several of you fellows used to fly over to Dallas for lunch with
Charlie Boykin the system administrator at killer/attctc. You fellows were
this >< close to Charlie.

I heard a rumor I'd like verified or discredited. It has to do with 
Charlie being fired by AT&T over these incidents, and rehired at union
insistence. Charlie went into a low profile mode as a result of all this 
hooplah, and I for one don't care to make trouble for people as nice and
as innocent as Charlie, so I haven't bothered him with mail or phone calls.
But you fellows are right there and have information of interest which you
could be sharing instead of fussing over Len and his problems.

No matter what Charlie told you at the time, it is now obvious that AT&T had 
no heart in the business of keeping a public access system and usenet hub 
alive and thriving at corporate expense. There were also some rumors about
AT&T security folks diddling the data (let's call it evidence) when killer
was taken down. I hope that you, Allen, and Bill Kennedy, are aware that
the same department at AT&T has been doing the computer related data
retrieval and interpretations on behalf of the US Government in a number
of cases. In fact, Maggio duplicated Len Rose's equipment "in the lab"
so they could work from data dumps instead of on the original machine which
might have been needed as "evidence." AT&T has a history of being self-serving.
Nothing's changed. See my comments about incestuous prosecutions in CUD.

I can see it now, the prosecution picks up a modem, with cables trailing
for showtime effect, "Yes, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. This is the
very modem the defendant used to commit this dastardly deed."

>Look, Mike, I'm not implying that the Government conducted its business
>squeakily clean.  Quite the contrary.  They botched several things that
>they attempted to do, and even openly admitted at one point that they
>were unprepared for investigating this type of criminal activity.  But
>it looks to me like the fact of the matter remains that Len Rose, almost 
>singlehandedly started all of this.  If I am wrong, please correct me,
>but please provide material to back up the claims that you make rather
>than just telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

This biz started in Atlanta, Not in Maryland. In fact, the entire business
of discovering Rose was the result, in my opinion, of an overbroad search
at the University of Missouri.

Your verdict of the government not being 'squeakily clean' hardly begins to
cover the filthy way they did conduct business. Before it is all done, Foley,
Cook, and others will be before the bar answering for a lot of other 
infractions of the laws they swore to uphold. And you boys down there in
Texas would do well to stop commiserating about how badly you've been treated.
It is highly likely that some of the fingerpointing needs be contained within
the little circle right in town.

Bill Vajk