Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!bonnie.concordia.ca!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!noc.sura.net!haven.umd.edu!uvaarpa!vger.nsu.edu!manes From: manes@vger.nsu.edu ((Mark D. Manes), Norfolk State University) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy Subject: Re: CBM & AMIGA Message-ID: <1139.286b1bef@vger.nsu.edu> Date: 28 Jun 91 15:22:22 GMT References: <2326@tekig7.MAP.TEK.COM> Lines: 249 In article <2326@tekig7.MAP.TEK.COM>, danielh@tekig5.PEN.TEK.COM (Daniel Hartman) writes: Before I start when did it become fashionable to flame Commodore? It seems to be the going trend. It is too bad the flames are so badly misdirected. Sigh... > Ok, I've been meaning to write a letter like this for a LONG time. I pray you never send this letter. Let it die with this message as well as the countless others you are going to generate. Perhaps that is the real purpose of this posting? > > A couple of amiga users problems with commodore: > > One thing that constantly amazes me about the Commodore Amiga is the fact that > CBM is still in business. It just boggles the mind that they could possibly > sell any computers with their kinds of business decisions. You bought one didn't you? That boggles my mind. If you thought Commodore was so screwed up why did you participate? Did you think that you were above all of these screwups? Did you think that you might be able to change the course that -MB- has set? Doom is just over the hill and yet you purchased an Amiga? Therapy may be in order. > > For example, in Wisconsin (I don't know if it is any different elsewhere, but... > ) I only know of 1 Commodore dealer in the state. Why? All the dealers I've > talked to have dropped Commodore because of a couple of reasons. First, CBM has > been pressuring them to sell their PC clone line. What a joke. Why would > anyone buy a Commodore PC when they could get something like a GATEWAY 2000 for > less and have a heck of a lot better computer? Second, for some unfathomable > reason, CBM has trouble getting parts to dealers. The three timese I have had > to have repairs (2 warranty, 1 my fault), it took a month, 4 months, and just > recently I got my 3000 back after 3 weeks. How hard can it be to ship out a > replacement motherboard? Reaallllyyyyy. 1. Commodore has NEVER pressured us to sell their PC clones (I work for a dealership) They did allow us to sell them, and that is different. 2. I have a Commodore 286 PC-40 Series III. Never the first moments trouble with compatibility or reliablity. Why do you think that Commodore's PC clones stink? 3. We don't have problems getting parts. Of course some parts like replacement A1000 keyboards were not easy to get, but all in all we get what we order in a reasonable amount of time. 4. You bought an A3000! Why oh why? Doom is over the next hill! 5. Commodore dealers don't tend to tell the 'whole truth' when their relationship with Commodore is not going well. The only relationship that Commodore truly cares about is money. If the bills are paid you have a good relationship. It is that simple. Some dealers forget this principle. > > ULTRA BAD BUSINESS DECISIONS: (by CBM) > > 1. Making the 500 look like a C128 (no comments necessary) That was a _great_ decision in my opinion. It is a very low-cost design, further at the time, this gave the Amiga buyer an inexpensive method of getting into Amiga computing. Prior to the A500 you could only purchase the very expensive A1000. > > 2. Not putting a 68020 in the 2000 when it was introduced. (Might have stopped > companies from making incompatible software (with the accelerated proc.) from > the beginning. Giggle. How quick we forget our history. The 68020 was expensive in 1987. I doubt that you would have paid the price, nor would have most. The point of the A500 and the A2000 was to replace the A1000. The most common complaint about the A1000 had to do with it being too in-expensive for business use and too expensive for home use. The A500 answered the low-end and the A2000 answered the major question of the time which was expandability. > > 3. Not including a hard drive with the 2000, or producing a cheap A500 or A1000 > type computer with a hard drive. What kind of computer does NOT have a hard > drive? Sure, maybe a 500 might cost $800 instead of $500, but then, maybe > people would buy a 500HD instead of a Mac Classic. If they had included a hard disk with the A2000 we would not have Supra, GVP, IVS and other hardware developers. Do you really wish this? There is a reason things are designed the way they are. Sometimes hardware capability is traded for improving the marketplace. Improving the marketplace allows the improvement in hardware. It is a tight circle that Commodore seems to understand. > > 4. (When they do it), putting 2.0 on ROMs for the 3000. It takes about 1 second > to load in the operating system from the harddrive, PLUS, its automaticly > put in faster RAM. They are going to put 2.0 in ROM for all machines (a500/a2xxx/a3xxx). What is the beef? > > 5. Not developing at least 8 bit color options by now. Yes, I know how hard it > is since they painted themselves into a corner with the custom chips, but > why didn't they just make faster versions of all the custom chips on the 3000 > so they could handle higher resolutions & bitplanes from the start. I'd > be willing to pay another $1000 for such. > I believe you already have 8 bit graphics now. If you want more then may I suggest you look at any of the number of 18-24 bit solutions that are now available. > 6. Not advertising. I don't mean televison commercials (how many people go, gee > I think I'll buy a PS/1 because I saw a TV commercial ?!?!?!?) What about > nice advertisments in general computer magazines, or the mac strategy - put > ads in PC Magazine and other popular PC magazines. > They _are_ advertising! I see Amiga ads all of the time in print. TV is expensive. If I had a limited budget, I would opt for the most market coverage instead of a flash in the pan which TV is. You need a lot of flashes to maket TV effective. > 7. CDTV. I'd personally rather see better graphics capabilities, 68040 boards, > etc. Give me a break. You want a $4000 CDTV? Who the hell would they sell that too? The power CDTV user... give me a break. > > Now, it may sound like I'm biased against the low-end users. However, you don't > hear PC and XT owners dictating how the industries going, do you? > No, its the high end users with 386s and 486s who 'control' the direction. > Also, if 500s did come with hard drives, and more were sold, then they wouldn't > cost as much, would they? Actually it _was_ the XT and AT owners that did drive that market. Competition breeds improvement. Of course it is debatable as to whether there has been improvement in the PC community. :-) > > Of course, Commodore does do some things right. For example, making the > computer and WB/KS in the first place. Personally, I feel WB is the best > single user OS there is; why not have the best personal computer there is to > go with it? Commodore did not invent these things, Amiga Corp. did. Commodore marketed the machine and in my opinion have improved the hardware and the software consistantly this last six years. > > Maybe its just marketing and management. Something needs to change! I think the change is needed at the customer level. :-) There should be a test given to any C64 user who wants to buy an Amiga. This test should have three questions: 1. Do you believe that all software should be free? 2. Do you believe that Commodore 'owes' you for your previous purchase? 3. Do you believe that Commodore is a 'social-service' or should be? If the answer is "YES" to any of these questions, the dealership should _not_ sell an Amiga to this customer. The dealership should throw this bum out into the street with a map to ComputerLand, the land of plenty. In some ways I think the A500 is the worst thing that ever happened to the Amiga. I got rid of my c64 to escape the mentality that is expressed in this message. I know this guy just purchased an Amiga 3000 ... I'll bet his first machine was a c64 and then the A500. I am tired of the "cheap" New-Age Bash Commodore attitude that Amiga owners seem to be have that consists of: "Put a 68040, 24 bit graphics, 32 bit stereo sound, make it PC compatible and make sure none of my software breaks all for $50" and "Oh, I want a six year warranty and if I am not happy within 10 years I want my money back!" > > Anyway, here's what I feel needs to be done. > > 8 bit VGA quality graphics, with or without the custom chips support. Repeat after me: VGA sucks hind-tit...VGA sucks hind-tit... > Cheap Amiga with native hard drive - less than $1000 w/o monitor. Perhaps you can sign up for the new "give an Amiga" program that Commodore has. I call it the Power up program. Costs a bit more than a $1000 but it does give you a hard disk. > Dump CDTV and put some R&D where it belongs - with the amiga. CDTV is an Amiga! CDTV is going to (hopefully) be the new cash cow. It may be the solution to a big part of Commodores woes. Dump CDTV? Absolutely not! > Develope good relations with dealers and increase the number of dealers. We have a _good_ relationship with Commodore and really would not want to see a slew of new dealers in our area. :-) Our dealership pays its bills! Suggest that to your dealership. > Get Unix 2.0 out with a 68040 and have a cheap, fast unix box, that happens > to run AMIGADOS. (backdoor method of selling amigas) See "Power Up" deal. > Either make a 386 bridgeboard or forget it (Cheaper just to buy another clone) NO! Spend R&D on the Amiga. Revise the bridgeboards and make them cheaper, like $100-$200. That way you can't say "buy a clone ... its cheaper" > Decent advertising - maybe a full page add saying: > Sure, the mac is easy to learn, but is it easy to use? The Amiga is > infinitely more flexible, with GUI and CLI integrated, as well as > other features, such as AREXX and real multitasking - plus it cost > less than a mac and about the same as a clone. > PC Clone power/price ratio with a real operating system. Please stay out of advertising? Please? > > Or something to that effect. > > Enough complaints for now. Yes.. enough already! > > Dan Hartman ^^^^^^^^^^^ Another MB wannabe... -mark= manes@vger.nsu.edu "What this world needs is a good cheap $5 plasma weapon"