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From: navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:  De-macification of the Amiga (Re: The Amiga's Future)
Message-ID: <14332@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: 30 Jun 91 00:36:50 GMT
References: <14300@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> <1991Jun27.115950.24857@Sugar.NeoSoft.com> <14318@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> <1991Jun29.232917.28817@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
Sender: news@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU
Reply-To: navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU
Lines: 116

In article <1991Jun29.232917.28817@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes:
>In article <14318@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU writes:
>>Weeell.  That's one opinion of course.  For the beginner user (which neither of
>>us are) there really isn't enough visual clueing as to whether menus exist
>>or not.  Witness, if you will, poor Joe user confused the first time he
>>fires up dpaint and hits his right mouse button.
>
>   Is our society so illiterate that noone can RTFM anymore? I mean sheesh,
>whenever I get a new stereo/vcr I read the manual so I know what its features

You know, it's attitudes like these that restrict computers to such a small
audience.  Personally, I think you should have stuck with your PC.  Shoot,
why give the user any clue at all, keep him in a text screen.  Sheesh, indeed.

Perhaps our society has BETTER THINGS TO DO than RTFM?

>draw modes. If a user is so stupid that he can't read the manual then
>he doesn't deserve a computer. 

If a programmer doesn't program in a clear, concise, intuitive way, his programs
don't deserve to make any money.

What I'd like to know is how many ovens Americans have compared to how many
Americans know how to cook?

>" When drawing in FooPaint, the right mouse button no longer functions
>normally. The right mouse button now erases pixels. To choose menu items
>you must point the mouse to the top of the screen and press the right mouse
>button."

"When drawing in FooPaint, the right mouse button no longer functions.
 To get your menus, please hit SHIFT_ALT_CTRL-M-E-N-U while humming the
 Star Spangled Banner."

"This brand new GTE lightbulb will last longer than your house.
 To install, please turn power off, pull out Tab A from socket 1, pulling
 perpendicular to Tab B.  Carefully insert socket extender 2 onto Tabs
 A and B, being careful to match Tab A with Female connection 2A.
 Insert lightbulb assembly into socket extender.
 Connect vaccuum assembly to glass cover.  Turn on vaccuum assembly, and
 when vaccuum indicator reads positive, quickly move glass cover over
 lightbulb assembly, making sure that no air accidentally leaks into
 glass cover.
 Weld glass to assembly and turn power back on.

 Warrantee does not extend to incorrectly assembled lightbulb packages."

I don't think so, that's why consistency in the user interface is so
important.  If you think these are silly cases, I'll dig out the directions
old GE refrigeration units used to have.  This was only a close approximation :)

I'm not arguing the case that's it's easier to draw with two buttons for two
pens, just that menus should be clued -- IE at the top of the window, OR
you can use a SHIFT-RIGHT_BUTTON anywhere in the window, or something like 
that.  In the best case -- YOU THE USER get to choose....

>>Also, there are some serious intuition-type conflicts that I'm not convinced
>>PopUpMenu has solved.
>[stating problem isn't simple]

You are right, it is not easy.

>Idea #1:
>Idea #2:

Neither is ideal, as you point out.
 
>  This still doesn't solve the problem of drawing window outlines
>and icons. Do you suggest we call a MoveLayer() and move the whole
>window like the NeXT when dragging? Sure it would look smooth on an

No, why would I suggest something like that?

>A3000, but on an A500 MoveLayer() is horrible. And having layers
>for each Icon? YUCK! That would be horrible comparing the way Amiga
>icons smoothly drag (vs the Mac dragging an outline)

Where are you coming up with this?

>  Sorry, I must disagree. This is _NOT_ a good thing for the A500/2000.

Really, I'm not sure who you are disagreeing with, but it's not me.

>The Amiga's interface is responsive because of the special cased ways
>icons/bobs/menus and outlines are handled. And it's only a minor nitpick.

If your machine hangs, it is NOT a minor problem.  There are two possible
ways out:

   1:  Intuition gets rewritten with hooks to run custom menu code.
   2:  Use Workbench timeout approach.

[By the way, even RJ thinks that his Gel code sucked...]

>  Actually, I think menus suck period. It takes to long to select a menu
>item. Hotkeys and gadgets are better.

Yeah, Ray, should have stuck with that PC.  I suppose you like the way those
WP strips hang over your function keys, or have you memorized all 40 functions?

The idea with menus is rather simple -- they are out of the way when you don't
want them, and they are on screen when you do want them.  The same cannot
be said of gadgets (which are always there) or hotkeys (which are never
on screen).

Combining too many features into one key can be deadly "F10?, drat, I meant
SHIFT F10."  And crowding a zillion gadgets onto the screen makes your
Amiga look like the cockpit of the shuttle.

I tell you what, why don't you go use TECO for awhile.  If you're happy with
that, I can't help you :), otherwise we can have a nice discussion about
what "user interface" means.

David Navas                                   navas@cory.berkeley.edu
	2.0 :: "You can't have your cake and eat it too."
Also try c186br@holden, c260-ay@ara and c184-ap@torus