Path: utzoo!utgpu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!pasteur!cory.Berkeley.EDU!navas From: navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David C. Navas) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy Subject: Re: De-macification of the Amiga (Re: The Amiga's Future) Message-ID: <14336@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> Date: 30 Jun 91 05:36:44 GMT References: <14318@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> <1991Jun29.232917.28817@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> <14332@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> <1991Jun30.015828.5393@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> Sender: news@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU Reply-To: navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU Lines: 141 Now we're getting someplace useful. :) In article <1991Jun30.015828.5393@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: >In article <14332@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> navas@cory.Berkeley.EDU writes: >>In article <1991Jun29.232917.28817@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> rjc@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray Cromwell) writes: > (I don't, and havenever owned a PC., so there. :-p) Used only for demo. :) > >>Perhaps our society has BETTER THINGS TO DO than RTFM? > > Perhaps our society has better things to do than read? When >software is distributed I think users should read the instruction manual. And I think that users should be able to get as much performance out of a program WITHOUT the manual, but when they get stuck, the manual should be helpful (which, sigh, they rarely are. But they're usually stuck on paper....). > As far as I know, lots of paint programs have selectable menu bars. Precisely, so that when you start it up, you know what's what. >(Turn them on of off) Most of them have a paint toolbox at the top of the >screen with menu bar. Ok, if your willing to justify screen real >estate I guess you could put a "click here for menus you dummy" at the top of >the screen. Yep, probably what I would argue. Actually, I'd argue that the current menu paradigm is really hosed. Especially on the Amiga, and it's getting worse on the Mac, too. > I'm disagreeing with the fact that Menus shouldn't lock rendering, on the >A500 locking is more efficient. Okay, give this one a shot then. Amiga brings up menus. *WHILE* menus are up, layer is created beneath where the menus are. Layers gets reset so that menu now reside entirely within layer, hidden layers are given the swapped bitmapped images, back, and LayerInfo is unlocked. Woila, user response didn't suffer, and we get something which doesn't *keep* layers locked. Icons, etc. are a completely separate problem, and should *definitely* lock the screen. OR we need to add greater abilities to those Bobs... [like every other system has to do with mouse pointers cause they don't have Sprites, natch.] > I think the Gel code sucks too, it's too slow. It bogs down the entire >machine just running a simple Gel object. Here's hoping in 2.1... > Where do I ever said I own a PC or ever owned one? I think the Menu It's a wicked lie. :) >paradigm sucks, there must be something better, like pop-up toolboxes/gadgets >or atleast pop-up menus are better than normal menus. I hate having to >move the mouse to the top of the screen to select a function! Menus are good for things which are consistent across apps. File:Open/etc., Edit:Cut/Paste/etc.... And, of course, we want tear off menus. I agree with the popup menus, they are much better suited for a lot of needs. >>The idea with menus is rather simple -- they are out of the way when you don't >>want them, and they are on screen when you do want them. The same cannot >>be said of gadgets (which are always there) or hotkeys (which are never >>on screen). > > But menus take mouse gymnastics to activate. Righto, detachable, tear-off menus. Very nice. Even nicer if you could reduce them to an icon (button). Even better to have the user be able to customize how his menu system works, of course. >>I tell you what, why don't you go use TECO for awhile. If you're happy with >>that, I can't help you :), otherwise we can have a nice discussion about >>what "user interface" means. > > I use Emacs, do I win a prize? Well, actually, you do. Out of the editors tested way back when, it was one of the best (especially for a Glass TTY interface). Of course, one of the reasons you use Emacs over TECO is that Emacs is way nicer to use, eh? {Yes, yes, emacs was written via TECO way back when) > I'd be glad to discuss user-interfaces. I just thing the standard menus >that the Mac/Amiga use are cumbersome sometimes for something like a mouse. Could be. That's why EVERY menu operation should have a keyboard equivalent. Especially for editors, where moving your hand to the mouse takes awhile. You wouldn't need to use your mouse, then. But for the casual user, he/she wouldn't need to remember dozens of shortcuts. >A two button light-pen/touch screen would be much cooler. Touch the >titlebar, then touch a menu item. But using the mouse for heavy >duty menu work can be nerve racking sometimes. The WIMP interface Well, WIMP is better than 24 line terminals, but it's got a ways to go... I disagree about the lightpen though. It'd take longer to use a lightpen (pick it up, mvoe to location, push, move, push). Especially for someone who works out and likes to be able to relax his arms on the keyboard. Would hate to pick up my arms :) >isn't the be-all of interfaces. I simply think something better, more >adaptable to a mouse can be worked out. Well, possibly. There are only so many things you can do with the mouse. And Amiga programs do generally have poor UI's, it's improving with 2.0 though. Don't you hate working out the quirks with file requesters: double-click or single-click to change to a directory? Can you use the arrow keys to move between selections? Or string gadget entry? >(Pop-up menus are a step in the right direction. I think pop-up menus >should be toggleable so that sometimes they stay on the screen when you >release the mousebutton and go away when you click the mouse button >again.) I've always liked to be able to "pin" my menus to the work area. ESPECIALLY when testing. Can't tell you how many race conditions you can find that way.... Some of them were quite, ummm, interesting. Programmable interfaces. That's what I want. Intuition has a *long* way to go for something like that, though. Too bad.... David Navas navas@cory.berkeley.edu 2.0 :: "You can't have your cake and eat it too." Also try c186br@holden, c260-ay@ara and c184-ap@torus