From: utzoo!decvax!harpo!npoiv!npois!ucbvax!sf-lovers Newsgroups: fa.sf-lovers Title: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #18 Article-I.D.: ucbvax.8045 Posted: Sun Jul 18 04:23:12 1982 Received: Mon Jul 19 00:48:04 1982 >From JPM@Mit-Ai Sun Jul 18 04:10:41 1982 SF-LOVERS Digest Sunday, 18 Jul 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 18 Today's Topics: SF Movies - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, SF TV - Star Trek II: The Roots of Khan, Spoiler - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sunday, July 18, 1982 12:27AM From: Jim McGrath (The Moderator) Subject: SPOILER WARNING! SPOILER WARNING! The messages in this digest discuss some plot details in both the movie and the book Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Some readers may not wish to read on. ------------------------------ Date: Friday, 16 Jul 1982 09:12-PDT From: obrien at RAND-UNIX Subject: Who was that doomed ship, anyway? My friend the SF reader, sometime fan, and all-round well-read fellow, had a problem with Star Trek II. The "Toborashi Maru", or whatever, rang his chimes. He swears he's heard that name before. At first he thought it was the ship in "Lord Jim", but no such luck. Does anyone out there read widely enough to remember where this ship has been seen before? We may have a Tuckerism here... ------------------------------ Date: 9 Jul 1982 17:55:43 EDT (Friday) From: Winston Edmond Subject: Spock's death The following, not surprising, item appeared in the Friday, July 9 issue of the Boston Globe. "Although Mr. Spock is killed off in the current block-buster movie, 'Star Trek II: the Wrath of Khan,' it's hard to keep a good Vulcan down, and so Spock, played by Leonard Nimoy, may miraculously be resurrected in the next Star Trek sequel. Gene Roddenberry, who created the original TV Star Trek, said Spock was killed in the current film because Nimoy was tired of the role, but fans 'put so much pressure on Paramount and Nimoy, Leonard has changed his mind' and has agreed to play Spock again." ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 1982 0152-PDT From: Friedland at SUMEX-AIM Subject: spock lives!? Channel 2 in the SF bay area just finished a two hour analysis/review of TWOK. They had many clips and interviews with all the principals. There seemed to be complete agreement that Spock was not really dead and would surface in the next movie. The clearest statement was by DeForest Kelley who said that Spock had had a mind meld with McCoy before entering the chamber and that that tied directly with the "remember" and the final line of McCoy about Spock not being dead while we remembered him, etc. So it would appear that the theories about Spocks mind living in McCoy for awhile are correct. Peter ------------------------------ Date: 11 Jul 1982 at 0301-PDT From: dan at SRI-TSC Reply-to: dan at SRI-TSC Subject: "Star Trek: The Roots of Khan" (partial Star Trek II SPOILER) Channel 2, a local San Francisco Bay Area station, put on a 2 hour special at midnight tonight about "Star Trek: The Roots of Khan". It was billed as a "Creature Feature Presentation", with the usual narrator for the midnight horror-flick "Creature Feature". It contained interviews with Nimoy, Montelban, DeForest Kelley, Shatner, and two guys from Industrial Light and Magic, as well as shots from both ST movies, and the entire "Space Seed" episode, uncut. It verified several ideas expressed in SF-Lovers about Spock's Re-birth, as well as a few new tidbits, which I will try to relate. Please forgive misspellings (especially names) and Ramble-mode-on -- it's past my bedtime. <> It was great to see Space Seed again. It was pretty much as I remembered it, except everyone looked so young in comparison to the movie clips they showed alongside it. One thing I noticed was that Khan and his people were not the products of genetic engineering, but rather of "selective breeding" (Spock mentioned this, and so did Kirk and Khan). Also, Khan was "absolute ruler of 1/4 your planet" (Spock) before they fled to find a new world to conquer. The interview with Montelban was interesting, but not too revealing. It was interesting that he felt the emotional scenes were the easiest to play. "Any actor with any talent can play those scenes". The hardest ones, according to him, were the expositive ones, like the ones he does on Fantasy Island. It's hard to say all those factual lines and not put your audience to sleep. Later on in the show, Shatner said "The hardest scenes were the ones with great emotion in them"... Guess I'm not the only one who thinks Shatner is a lousy actor! When DeForest Kelley was asked about Spock's death, he mentioned how Spock gave him the mind-meld just before going into the radiation chamber, and how at the funeral Bones said "He is not forgotten, as long as we remember him" (or whatever the exact quote is). Kelley stressed the relationship of those two lines, and their importance in bringing Spock back (but you heard it first in SF-Lovers!). Nimoy mentioned that he had been approached by Paramount to do the next movie. And he also reminded the idiot interviewer (who kept insisting "but Spock's dead. I SAW him die.") that Spock's body is lying on a planet formed by the Genesis Effect, which is still active and effecting changes on his body. When was asked if they might bring Spock back by having the next movie take place before his death, he commented "that's possible, but I'm not getting any younger". All in all, though nobody came out and said it, they were all trying VERY hard (and not at all subtly) to give the message that Spock will be back. (It almost seemed that they were worried nobody would figure that out by themselves, and everyone boycott the sequel). The interview with the two guys from Industrial Light and Magic was the most interesting (sorry I can't remember their names. It's late...). Two things I hadn't heard before: The scene of the Genesis Effect creating the planet from a Nebulae in the end was filmed in the Cow Palace in San Francisco, because they needed a big area to set off some pyrotechnics. The cameras were mounted in the middle of the arena pointed up toward the detonations, to get a "zero gee" effect. Also, the scene in the end, of Spock's coffin sitting among the bushes, was filmed in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco, because they were in a hurry and needed a lush spot that was nearby (the ILM studio is in San Raphael). According to the interviewer, George Takai refused to be in ST:TWOK unless they showed Sulu being more than just someone sitting on the bridge. So they filmed him in a few other scenes, developing his character more, then cut all of the scenes except the bridge ones, during editing! Nimoy mentioned that one of the reasons the special effects were so much better in TWOK was that in the first movie, they were way behind schedule, so had to rush the SFX. But in TWOK they had much more time. Hmm... One final note: without his makeup on, Bones (DeForest Kelley) looked OLD. MUCH older than everyone else. Hope they don't take too long before starting the next ST movie (what a terrible thing to say)... Good Night! Dan@sri-tsc (Dan Chernikoff) ------------------------------ Date: 6 Jul 82 0:27:39-EDT (Tue) From: Craig.umcp-cs at UDel-Relay Subject: Star Trek III ???? [Start Flame Mode] Are they really thinking of calling the movie "the search for Spock?" I'll be upset!!! Do you know how long I've been waiting to see that pointy-eared smart-ass get his? Doesn't like humans, does he? Thinks we're irrational creatures incapable of logical, rational action, does he? Well, I sure as hell wouldn't have volunteered to walk into a radiation area. Green-blooded snob! I'm glad he's dead. My only disappointment with the movie is that Chekhov lived. My favorite scene in the series was the "Empire" episode, where Chekhov was stuffed into the torture chamber. Maybe I don't like Russians or something, but I enjoyed that. How about this for the next movie: Star Trek III: The Death of Everyone. Kill 'em all off. Maybe Earth too. How about this: Chekhov is taking the Enterprise into Earth port after a long, boring mission. Kirk is making it with some random Yeoman, and Chekhov is still hung over from that bottle of 'Wodka' he polished off last night. Anyway, Chekhov is making a pass at Saavik, when the Enterprise 'sorta bumps into' Haley's comet. Well, the fenders are dented and all that, and they KNOW star fleet command just wouldn't understand, so they take the ship into a fly-by-night body shop on the dark side of the moon, get it patched up, and blame whatever they can't fix on the Klingons. Anyway, Haley's comet ends up crashing into the Earth. The entire crew is on shore leave, so they buy it. Except Kirk, who is still closeted with the Yeoman. At the end of the movie they have this scene of Kirk being hung by his ... toenails and flayed alive (just to satisfy the current demand for violence and gore). But the sentimental slobs will probably throw away this 'golden opportunity' to correct their past mistakes and continue to glorify some pointy eared half-breed who considers humans a poor second to a good, reliable, logical, pocket calculator. [End Flame Mode] ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 1982 at 1450-CDT From: ables at UTEXAS-11 (King Ables) Subject: re: V6 #7 Re: Dan Klein's question: why didn't Chekhov and Terrell beam up from inside immediately? In the book they explain this as there being too much interference from the atmosphere of the planet. Beaming from the outside was hard enough, from inside a metal building was impossible. (as I think someone pointed out earlier). It's too bad that so many things have to be (or just are) left out of a movie that go in the book, they usually make the story much more interesting and logical. Star Wars was this way, the book had a LOT of information that got left on the cutting room floor. I strongly suggest the book to both SW and STII. TESB was only slightly enlightening. I hope when SW comes to CBS next year(?) that they do with it what ABC did with Superman, add about an hour's worth of footage that wasn't in the original release! Re: Hal Chambers' point about Chekhov assuming his "regular post" upon return to the Enterprise. I assume he did that since he was familiar with the post and felt he could contribute. The book didn't really explain why it was so easy for him to be a part of the Enterprise crew again. It did explain his condition - not too healthy, but better than no help at all. In fact, he had to be helped to the turbo lift from Sick Bay. I guess this was just one of the ways the good guys pitch in to help one another. -ka ------------------------------ Date: 8 Jul 1982 1924-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Star Trek II -- TWOK These are some comments on recent entries concerning "The Wrath of Khan". First, in the novelization, it indicates that Chekov DID indeed attempt to contact the ship, but there was too much background static. Perhaps the static was natural, or perhaps in was produced by Khan himself to prevent the premature departure of a landing party. By the way, it was the Reliant that was orbiting Ceti Alpha V, NOT the Enterprise... Perhaps Kirk should have raised the shields, as he anticipated troubles at Regulus I. However, the Reliant was running with her shields down until the last moment, so I see no reason why Kirk should not leave his shields down likewise, to avoid expending the extra energy. As he berated himself later, "I did nothing but get caught with my britches down..." (Remember the episode "The Ultimate Computer"? After M-5 committed suicide, Kirk ordered the shields to remain down as an act of good faith. Perhaps that is one of those unwritten regs, that is the commander's discretion...) Why did the creature leave Chekov's brain? I have my own theory. I have seen the movie four times so far, but am still not sure about one thing, since the scene moves too fast. It looks like Tyrell, just before committing suicide, yanks some sort of wire out of his neck. Could that wire, (If I saw the scene correctly,) have been connected to the creature in his brain somehow? Remember, in the previous scene on the Reliant, it appears that Khan has some sort of electronic device wired into his bracelet. The control device, possibly? Let us assume that said control device was used on both Chekov and Tyrell. When Tyrell committed suicide, he was no longer really under the control of Khan, as he had yanked the control wire. But the shock, or feedback, plus Chekov's devotion and loyalty to Kirk could have made things very uncomfortable for the Ceti Eel, and it decided to vacate the premises for a better environment. (or, perhaps it matured early, and vacated Chekov's brain before death could occur...) That's my theory, anyway. Finally, about Chekov's status. It WAS explicitly stated that he was a member of the Reliant crew, as in the first scene in which we see him, he is filing the ship's log as First Officer... Why did no one blink an eye when Chekov re-appeared on the bridge? Remember, this was a training mission, with a bunch of green recruits. In the battle they were about to engage, an experienced, space hardened weapons officer would be much more desirable than a student who has only used a simulator. (Plus the fact that the Mutura Nebula rendered normal sensors useless. It might just need that old gut feel when aiming and firing...) Albeit, Chekov had just been through Hell, with the eel doing a fair amount of damage to the ear canal and possibly to the brain itself. However, it appears that Chekov's loyalty overrode his physical discomfort. -Henry Miller ------------------------------ Date: 16 Jul 1982 1943-PDT From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Star Trek II -- The Wrath of Khan I forgot to mention something in my previous message concerning The Wrath of Khan. Kirk ordered the console code for the Reliant to me punched up, in order to force her to drop her shields. Well and good. But, in the TV episode "The Ultimate Computer", the M5 takes on four other starships at the same time. Why didn't the M5 use this feature to disable the other ships? On the same notion, why didn't Commodore Wesley order the Enterprise to drop her shields? Perhaps this feature was installed much later, to prevent a similar M5 Fiasco. -HWM ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest ***********************