From: utzoo!decvax!ucbvax!sf-lovers Newsgroups: fa.sf-lovers Title: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #95 Article-I.D.: ucbvax.192 Posted: Thu Dec 2 21:35:36 1982 Received: Sat Dec 4 08:19:21 1982 >From SFL@SRI-CSL Thu Dec 2 21:10:46 1982 Reply-To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL To: SF-LOVERS@SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Friday, 3 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 95 Today's Topics: Books - Chalker's Nathan Brazil in Well-World series, Bradley's Darkover series, Clarke's vacuum breathing, Cook's Dread Empire & StarFishers trilogies & the Swordbearer Vinge/Martin's True Names Children's SF and fond memories T.V. - Dr. Who, Star Trek favorite and least favorite episodes Movies- The Last Unicorn, Star Wards / TESB: the "other", Revenge of the Jedi Music - Filksinging Misc - Notes from Chicon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2 Dec 1982 09:27 EST Subject: Who the Well is Nathan Brazil? From: Chris Heiny If Brazil was a normal human, why did he claim to be, among other things, God or a Markovian (i think i got that right). The explanation at the end of the series didn't clear anything up for me. If Brazil was really human, why did he turn into a turnip every time he entered the Well control center? Why did he lie about who/what he was? The foofaraw about amnesia seems a bit contrived to me. (But most of the last two books seems a bit contrived). Perhaps I will blow off this weekend and reread the series. chris PS Did anyone else notice the unusual sexual tastes of the last-centaur-on-earth? He is the only homosexual I can recall in a Chalker book. ------------------------------ Date: 2 December 1982 1303-EST (Thursday) From: Bob.Walker at CMU-CS-A Subject: darkover novels I've just started reading the Darkover novels, and recall a discussion this past spring or so on the "correct" order in which to read them (perhaps chronological?). Does anyone still have this information around anywhere, or can you tell me where to find it? - bob ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 17:17:17 EST (Wed) From: Grumpy Sender: John R Bane Subject: general emptying of buffer... 1) The first sf books I read were stuff like 'The white mountains' (I still like that book!), 'A Wrinkle in Time', 'The Forgotten Door', 'Gray Magic' (formerly 'Steel Magic', I think), some of Heinlein's early books, my favorites being 'The Door into Summer' 'The Puppet Masters', 'Waldo', and 'Magic, Inc.' Matter of fact, I still think these books are pretty good. I also read the first half of 'Stranger in a Strange Land' a few times (just couldn't get past the business conference in the middle), and a just a lot of things, sf and other. (I read a lot of stuff my friends the librarians suggested, including 'Snowy', a story about a high school cheerleader discovering how to give blow jobs. I wonder why she suggested that?) 2) Shrinking people - there was a sequel to the story (title and author forgotten, I'm afraid) about a group of people shrunk to .25 inches as a possible solution to overpopulation (memory of book "We could build cities under the skin of cows, and mine for food, with giant (i.e. normal sized) dummies tending the cows ...) Anyway, the sequel (the original was mentioned 5 or 10 digests ago) is called 'Killer Pine', I think, and is about these miniature people being sent to Russia to find out about their shrinking project, and I think steal some documents or something. I read it YEARS ago. 3) To one of the people discussing Star Wars - Princess Leia came from Aldaran, not Organia. Organians were those super-powerful energy people from 'Errand of Mercy' of Star Trek. 4) My favorite space suit is John Varley's. ('Persistance of Vision', etc.) One lung is replaced with this spacesuit generator. When you go anywhere not suitable (pun?) for bare living, this machine generates an energy field that follows the contours of your body and reflects everything, so you look like a mirror except for spots that follow your eyes. The system is automatic, and feeds oxygen into your bloodstream. Doors cam be made of this stuff, so you just walk out and it's like the door wraps itself around you. Also, Varley seems to be pretty competent at handling women. Another interesting thing: sex change operations are so common that it's odd not to have at least one or two in your life. Unfortunately, the general universe as revealed in 'The Ophiucci Hotline' is extremely depressing. (There are three levels of intelligence: 1. the Invaders, who easily kick Man off Earth 2. Porpoises and whales 3. Bees, dogs, humans, etc.) There is absolutely no hope of regaining Earth. [Varley's "8-Worlds" universe is my favorite future history. I vastly prefer it to Niven's or Heinlein's. Varley seems to have a knack for cleverly revealing information, landscape, characterization, and technological achievements in a subtle way rather than explaining it and hitting you over the head with it as so many authors do. The three books making up this universe are: The Ophiuchi Hotline, The Persistence of Vision, and The Barbie Murders. Books of his which are not quite up to this level are Titan and Wizard, part of a trilogy probably pressed upon him by his publisher (just a guess). I believe it's about time for another "8-Worlds" collection near the release of his upcoming novels Demon (to complete the above mediocre trilogy) and the novelization of the short story Air Raid from his Persistence collection, which I have higher hopes for. -- Stuart] 5) From the Star Trek episode "City on the edge of forever," I think the quote was more like "I am endeavoring, madam, to construct a mnemonic circuit with stone knives and bear skins." Edith just said, "Oh." 6) My favorite episodes include the above, and "A Piece of the Action", "The Trouble with Tribbles", "Elaan of Troyius" (though I saw it many times before deciding I liked it), "Assignment Earth" (a pilot that never made it to its own series), and lots others. As a matter of fact, there are good portions of almost every show. Even the one with the Combs and the Yangs (I turn my TV off at the end, it's so embarrassing) there is the scene where Kirk knows he is going to die. His shoulders slump, and he just stands there, but when Tracy's phaser doesn't fire he immediately recovers - better than Kirk hugging a random Yeoman, anyway. Other worsts: "Spock's Brain" (still intriguing, the transfer of knowledge for a short while, the use of a brain to run things as a body), the one with the reused western set and the shootout (still, the idea of mind over matter ...) possibly "Elaan of Troyius" (that hokey love potion) (but I still like it a lot - giving up her selfishness for a man she cannot help but despise and a people she absolutely hates because of 'duty and responsibility.' The idea of the spoiled child learning better has always caught my interest. Anyway, enough for this message. 7) Extremely sorry this 'note' is so long. I especially apologize to you folks trying to skip this at 300 bau. The digests arrive so fast they kinda pile up on me. - rene ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1982 12:00:36-EST From: csin!cjh at CCA-UNIX Subject: crxn on Clarke's vacuum breathing The story [containing] "Take a Deep Breath" is "The Other Side of the Sky", not "Islands in the Sky". ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 2340-EST From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: Glenn Cook: Dread Empire & StarFishers trilogies, and the Subject: Swordbearer While at ChiCon I worked up my nerve and with great trepidation asked Glenn Cook to autograph a set of the StarFishers trilogy. (I wanted to give them as a present to friends of mine who couldn't make it to ChiCon.) While he was signing them and some things for other people, I asked him about the both the Dread Empire trilogy and the StarFishers trilogy (I also talked to him a for little bit later in the con). When asked how he felt about the StarFishers trilogy, he said that he wasn't really happy with the books. What he said was that he had conceived the trilogy as a two volume story and his publisher had insisted that he expand it to three books. As a result, the second book underwent a massive rewrite and a minor character from the first book was promoted to be the unifying character across all three books (anyone care to guess who that character was? if you don't guess Mouse, go back and re-read the first book). I think that this explains why the last two books didn't have the same feel as the first one, I guess that he didn't really commit himself to them as fully as he did to the first book. And no, he doesn't plan on any other books in the series. What he said about Dread Empire was interesting too. Cook claims that his original concept was to follow a small cast of characters until the last one of them died. He currently feels that the series will run to seven books by the time this happens, although this is subject to change. From what he said I assume that changes in the length of the series will come from any of three sources: 1) the publisher wants it longer or shorter, 2) new characters introduce themselves and decide to be major characters who must be followed all the way through to their deaths, and 3) major characters insist on dying early (he said that this had happened to him with one character already, but I didn't catch which character it was). The only important comment he made about the Swordbearer was that he didn't expect to be writing a sequel to it. Steve Z. ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 2308-EST From: Steven J. Zeve Subject: notes from ChiCon... yes I know it's a bit late. I heard several interesting things at ChiCon, and I don't recall having seen them mentioned here. Please forgive me if this is redundant. The two biggest announcements of the con (outside of the Hugos of course), were: 1) A carbon copy (with handwritten corrections) of the manuscript for H. Beam Piper's third fuzzy novel has been found. The book will be published this coming year, by Ace I believe. (They found the copy in a box of stuff after they FINALLY settles the legal battles surrounding his estate.) 2) Cordwainer Smith's notebooks have been found. James Gunn (at least I think it was Gunn) convinced the university that he works for to purchase the notebooks. As of the time of the ChiCon, the notebooks had not been thoroughly examined and indexed, so they didn't know if there were any unpublished stories in the collection. Gunn felt that there were at least two PhD's worth of analysis to be had from the whole set of papers. There were some lesser things that I heard that might be of interest to this list: 1) Gordon Dickson is now claiming that "The Final Encyclopedia" will be available next fall (probably November). He also claims that he has at long last begun the final book in the series, "Childe". 2) The Panshins have begun their own publishing house called (I believe) Elephant Books. I have a flyer on it somewhere and will be happy to type in the pertinent information from it if anyone is interested. 3) Glenn Cook claims that there are at least two more Dread Empire series books to come. Possibly two more beyond that if he can sell the publisher on them. He expects the next volume to come out in two years (his publisher has the book already but has cut back the SF/Fantasy line by one title per month, thus possibly pushing the book back by 1 year. It was originally scheduled for 1983). Steve Z. p.s. I notice that we are getting a great deal of verbiage/flaming about TESB and SW lately, some of the people doing this might be interested in seeing all the verbiage that was generated back during the original release of TESB. Moderator Stuart, if you haven't pointed out where to find this material could you do so now? If you have already done so, accept my apologies for asking you to repeat the work (in the last 1 and 1/2 weeks, I have read all the SF-L generated from ChiCon through now and I can't keep it all straight as to what has already been said). [The Star Wars / TESB discussion is in [SRI-CSL]ARCHIVE.V1 at the end of the file. -- Stuart] ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1982 1436-EST From: DAVID.LEWIN Subject: Children's SF My science fiction reading began with a book (author's name now forgotten) called "The Space Ship Under the Apple Tree". All I remember is that the friendly aliens helped out a farm family by enclosing their burning barn in vacuum to put out the fire. As with many other respondents, my next step was juvenile Heinlein. ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 2 December 1982 17:08-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: Early reading and book stores Date: Tuesday, 30 Nov 1982 23:50-PST From: gail at RAND-UNIX To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: Early reading and book stores I remember quite clearly the first science fiction books I read. They were a series by Ruthven Todd (?). Some of the books were: Space Cat, Space Cat Goes to Mars, Space Cat Goes to Venus, Space Cat Has Kittens... As you can tell by the titles, they were aimed at an age group somewhat younger than the Mushroom Planet books (which I don't remember ever reading). Anyone remember these books? I can't even find them in the local library anymore. Fond memories of bygone days... How well I remember these books - they were my introduction to SF back in elementary school. I can remember scouring first the school library, then the local public libraries for these... ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 82 15:44:54-PST (Tue) From: harpo!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!uicsl!wombat at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: True Names- Dell true to word - (nf) #R:pur-phy:-59600:uicsl:10700001:000:242 uicsl!wombat Nov 30 13:12:00 1982 Must have been one of the last copies. My husband tried the same thing and got a form letter saying "thanks for the order, but the book is no longer in stock." Maybe someday a copy will make it to a used bookstore out here in the midwest... ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 13:15:22-PST (Wed) From: npois!houxm!ihnp4!ihuxk!mhauck at Ucb-C70 Subject: Doctor Who? Does anyone have an update to the Doctor Who list that came out in Oct. It was only upto March 30, 1982. If anyone has the rest of them please mail them to ixlpc!mhauck Thank you M.J.Hauck ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 82 21:31:07-PST (Tue) From: decvax!cwruecmp!ccc at Ucb-C70 Subject: Comment on The Last Unicorn In a recent "issue" of SF-LOVERS DIGEST there was a review of The Last Unicorn, in which the reviewer said that some of the dialogue "must have been taken from the book". I would hope so, as the "screenplay" was, I believe, written by Peter S. Beagle himslef! There is a minute chance that I'm wrong, but even if I am, I did recognize most of the dialogue. The only problem I had (if one could call it a problem) was that some of the more philosophical parts were left out. I suppose this was to make the story fit into two hours. All in all, the movie was masterfully done. I heartily recommend it. Clayton Elwell {usenet}!decvax!cwruecmp!ccc ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 12:25:22-PST (Wed) From: harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxj!mhuxi!macrev at Ucb-C70 Subject: What is a Filk? I'm new here -- what is a Filk? Mike Lynch BTL Short Hills, NJ ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 17:42:29-PST (Wed) From: npois!houxm!houxa!houxi!whuxk!3722trn at Ucb-C70 Subject: more on the Other For every person who has seen TESB, there is a pet 'significant happening'. I have not yet seen mine on the net, which is: The carbon freezing chamber, Han is about to go down, when Chewie goes on a mini-rampage. Han calms him down, but before that, Boba Fett takes aim at Chewie with his rifle, ONLY TO HAVE VADER KNOCK THE WEAPON DOWN (but not out of his hands). I was almost convinced of the 'clone' significance (either DV or Luke) until John MacLean at NRL-CSS suggusted 'colon' (rhymes with cologne) short for colonial. One of the real Trek dogs was the gunfight at the OK corral episode. another good one is Shore Leave, by Theodore Sturgeon. Re: tRotJ trailer, my husband thinks the Vatican is mixed up in it, because of the scenes of all the people in red robes. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1982 1328-EST From: Stephen R Balzac Subject: Star Trek The first ST movie was written by Alan Dean Foster, not Roddenberry. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1982 1211-PST From: CARROLL at USC-ISIF Subject: Best STs How about 'The Naked Time', in which the crew is exposed to an alien organism which releases inhibitions and self-doubts in the victim. One crewman attempts suicide, and later dies due to a lack of will to live, because he thinks man should not be in space; Sulu chases people through the corridors with a fencing foil; Spock breaks down and cries. I haven't seen this for quite a while, but I think it was one of the better ones. 'The Tholian Web' was pretty good, too, with some nice scenes with Spock and McCoy, and an interesting, but SLOW, space combat technique employed by the Tholians. 'Charlie X', with Robert Walker Jr. ( currently featured in a Certs ad), was not bad, either. Most of the other favorites already mentioned go on my list, too. The WASTE ( Worst of Any Star Trek Ever) Award goes to 'The Way to Eden'. The only redeeming part of this one is when one hippie-oid completes his medical exam, and sings: "I'm gonna dance and sing and jump for joy, I got a clean bill of health from Doctor McCoy!". Steve (carroll@isif) ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 2 December 1982 17:12-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: ST faves Date: Wednesday, 1 December 1982 07:14-EST From: Henry W. Miller To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: ST faves As was "Assignment: Earth", which was supposed to be a Star Trek spinnoff, about an advanced alien (of Terran ancestry) and a scatterbrained but brilliant secretary who were supposed to help Earth out during it's critical periods. How many of you realized that? This was pointed out in "The World of Star Trek", which had a section describing the writer, director, and guest stars for each episode in each of the three seasons. It also had a few random notes about specific episodes (like if they were nominated or won a Hugo award) and which were significant for other reasons (like "Assignment: Earth"). --vaf ------------------------------ Date: Thursday, 2 December 1982 17:16-EST From: Vince Fuller Subject: Worst Star Trek episode "City on the Edge of Forever" was definitely the best; who knows what the other Star Trek episode to win a Hugo was? Hmm... Not having my copy of "The World of Star Trek" here, I can't tell offhand. Some guesses would be "The Doomsday Machine" and the second pilot script "Where No Man has Gone Before". --vaf ------------------------------ Date: 2 December 1982 23:44-EST From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: Worst Star Trek episode The biggest problem with the episode about the Yangs and the Komms was not Kirk recognizing that dribble as the Pledge of Allegiance and spouting it back to them, it was the fact taht the Yangs recognized HIS fribble as their sacred words. Their language had changed so radically that there was really no comparison between the two speeches except the cadence, and I never really believed that they would be able to recognize his as the same. 'Mog dowbagh jonnah' Does not at any time sound like 'I pledge alligienance', and the Yangs accepting it as their own (mythical) gospel was ludicrous. Remember that Kirk has always been (among his other sterling qualities), a historical scholar and chliche-ridden romantic. His rememberance of the alligiance is not unreasonable in that light (I mean, what else does he have to do on all those long, cold nights out in the middle of space... He obviously isn't married, and even if you are in love with your ship, that isn't necessarily the kind of relationship that keeps your nights busy...) chuck (chuqui at mit-mc) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1982 1506-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: Re: ST faves I have the OLD version of that book; not so detailed. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 30 Nov 82 22:07:52 EST (Tue) From: Craig Stanfill Subject: Time schemes in SF. In a previous journal, someone noted a conflict between the age of a bottle of brandy and a stardate. Unfortunately, it is impossible to judge terran dates by stardates, which vary as a ship moves from one 'local time zone' to another. Does anyone out there know exactly how stardates are computed? I would also like to know what dating schemes have been proposed in various SF works. The most obvious is to look at a clock on earth, and subtract your distance from the clock in light-years from that clock . This works if everyone moves slowly, but when relativistic effects become important it doesn't work. ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 82 01:38-EDT (Thu) From: the Golux Subject: Revenge of the Hey Judes First off: Impressive verbiage, Jon (Solomon), but why do you fully capitalise VADER? The clone wars: I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but how about this scenario: Vader is a clone of Luke's real father, whom Vader subsequently killed. As a non-emotionally clad figure (i.e., not Luke's actual biological dad), Vader is fair game for Luke to kill. Han is Luke's brother, by his defunct biological dad. He is 'the other,' but no-one knows it but Yoda (savvy little bugger, ain't he?). Leia... Who knows what she'll do? Women and weather, y'know... She has the hoary and time-honoured right (rite?) to change her mind, so I'm making no sorties in that direction. How does this sit with folks? ken coar@umass ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 13:26:24 EST (Wed) From: Khron The Elder Subject: Luke's father and such.... Actually, Darth is a clone of Chewbacca that didn't quite make it. That might explain why he wears all that apparatus. Then Darth had a clone of himself made, into whom he tried to transfer himself by some frobbish use of the Farce. This clone on a clone, however, had his own personality, and escaped before he was reprogrammed. He had a kid, and lived happily for a while, till Vader caught up with him, and zapped him. I don't know if anybody suggested this yet, I've been throwing the last few weeks of SFL on the ground because of other things. Also, Obi Wan Kenobi is actually Obi Two Kenobi. They were cloned from each other and Obi Wan was the Jedi killed when the Empire (big 'E'?) took over. This is fun, you can do anything once you introduce the idea of clones......... -Rehmi- ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 12:54:01 EST (Wed) From: Chris Torek I vote for Chewbacca as Luke's father. - Chris (or: how about, Obi-Wan is Luke's father (or a clone thereof?)) (or: Luke is Luke's father??? Time warp?) (or: Leia's father & Luke's father are clones, and Luke & Leia are brother and sister?) Seriously... isn't this getting a bit ridiculous? ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 00:42:57 EST (Wed) From: Liz Allen Subject: Luke's father Could it be that both Obiwan and Darth Vadar are both right (in a sense) about Luke's father? It was recently pointed out to me that in the very beginning, Leia's recorded message to Obiwan says something about Obiwan helping Leia's father during the \klone/ wars. Now, could Darth Vadar be a klone of Luke's father??? -Liz ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1982 0300-PST From: Henry W. Miller Subject: R2D2 and Toto Too... A few years back, in fact just a few months after Star Wars came out, a brilliant cartoon came out in a fanzine. it was called, "R2D2 and Toto too..." Here is the summary: All of the characters of "The Wizard of OZ" were there, and in the background were their phantom counterparts from Star Wars. Dorthy/Princess Leia Scarecrow/Han Solo Tin Man/C3P0 Cowardly Lion/Chewbacca Wicked Witch/Darth Vader (naturally...) Toto/R2D2 The Wizard of Oz/Obi Wan Kenobi Flying Monkeys/TIE Fighters The Witch's Castle/DEATH STAR Munchkins/Jawas Witch's Soldiers/Imperial Storm Troopers As you can see, the parallels run on and on. The interesting point is that there is no real counterpart for Luke or Glinda, unless you want to equate Glinda with Obi-Wan, instead of the Wizard. Luke is an interesting point. Perhaps he has no counterpart because he is special, "A New Hope..." I wonder if Lucas had this in mind, or if it was just a delightful coinidence? David Gerrol admits that he might have subconsciously plagerized Heinlein's "The Rolling Stones" when he wrote "The Trouble with Tribbles", but Heinlein LOVED it!!! In any event, I love the fact the Star Wars is in effect an updated version of "The Wizard of Oz". I love both movies. -HWM ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 18:56:11-PST (Wed) From: decvax!cwruecmp!krm at Ucb-C70 Subject: star wars vs. all in the family Ok, at last I've got the definative Star Wars solution. OB*1*, Vader, Luke's father, Luke, Leia's father, the Emporer **AND** boba fet are all clones from the same batch and the same infantry squad. clone, clone on the range.... 'chard. :-) ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 82 18:02:45-PST (Thu) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!everett (Everett Kaser) at Ucb-C70 Subject: Star Wars saga: ROTJ - (nf) #N:hp-pcd:8200005:000:979 hp-pcd!everett Dec 2 14:40:00 1982 From: Everett Kaser hplabs!hp-pcd Last night we went to see The Empire Strikes Back again after 2 1/2 years, and it was preceded by a brief preview of Revenge of the Jedai. It was primarily just a series of quick scenes of all of the major characters. What was interesting was that the one for Obi Wan (or however it's spelled), showed him as a solid corporeal person, not the 'ghost' he's been since the end of Star Wars. Also, in TESB, the one brief time the Emporer is seen (via Light TV), talking to Vader, he looks remarkably similar to Yoda. He has a hood on and the picture is very grainy, so he could easily looked remarkably like my pet cat, but it was an interesting thought that the emporer might be of the same race as Yoda. After all, where did Yoda come from? And where's the rest of his race? Is he the last remnant of some of the action in Star Wars 1 thru 3? Never afraid to make my mark, X ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1982 15:36 PST From: TEMPLETON.ES at PARC-MAXC Subject: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #94 I have been reading the discussions on the 3rd episode in the Star Wars series but have not seen any indication of how I can either see it myself (has it been released) or read it (is it a book) or whatever? Can anyone tell me about it? JBT ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 82 14:20:57 EST (Wed) From: Andrew Scott Beals Subject: the `other' . . . is Steven Speilberg! (ahem.) :-) -andy ------------------------------ Date: 2 Dec 1982 1909-PST From: Bill Subject: The other... Hmmm... I think that OBI-WAN KENOBI will come back to life in ROTJ, and, that he is the "other hope." Bill ------------------------------ Date: 2 December 1982 23:48-EST From: Charles F. Von Rospach Subject: The Other, etc. Another thing about Bobba Fett... If he isn't such an important character, then why was he the FIRST action figure put out by Kenner (in front of the Yoda doll, and new dolls for all the other people), and why is he still being pushed in the Star Wars Action Figure advertising? What we don't know, the marketing people probably do... chuck (chuqui at mit-mc) ------------------------------ Date: 1 Dec 1982 2233-PST Subject: "Won back from the dark side" From: Dave Dyer Vader? won back from the dark side? How large a stack of bibles would you make Adolf Hitler stand on before you believe he was "won back" from genocidal tendancies? After all, Vader only destroyed one planet... ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest *********************** Brought to you by Super Global Mega Corp .com