From: utzoo!decvax!ucbvax!sf-lovers Newsgroups: fa.sf-lovers Title: SF-LOVERS Digest V6 #101 Article-I.D.: ucbvax.318 Posted: Fri Dec 10 11:25:12 1982 Received: Sat Dec 11 04:18:09 1982 >From SFL@SRI-CSL Fri Dec 10 11:10:18 1982 Reply-To: SF-LOVERS at SRI-CSL To: SF-LOVERS@SRI-CSL SF-LOVERS Digest Thursday, 9 Dec 1982 Volume 6 : Issue 101 Today's Topics: Themes - time travel Misc - pronouncing Leibowitz, beginning SF Cons - Chicago convention T.V. - favorite Star Trek episodes Movies - SW/TESB/ROTJ's Other + Tolkien ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 December 1982 20:14-EST (Wednesday) From: Paul Fuqua Subject: Comments on Reality and Time Travel Comments on two subjects, not on the combination. Reality: Date: Sunday, 28 November 1982 15:35-PST From: Jonathan Alan Solomon To: SF-LOVERS at MIT-MC Re: The Other [rebuttal] (....) The Force binds the universe together. Every physical object, living or not, has a mapping into some universal array. Ideas are merely conceptions of something not yet explained in this universal array. If you decide that the world is made up of Protons, Neutrons, and Electrons, and there is no strong opposition (counter-example) to that theory, then it holds. Every mind in the universe begins to accept this theory as fact. Once the theory is proven beyond reasonable doubt, it becomes part of our interpretation of reality. (....) I know this passage appeared quite a while ago, but I only just discovered Bboards and mailing lists. Reality as only the perceptions of the observer is quite a popular theme in writing of several genres, but only once have I seen a story actually *built* on the theme. The story is "The New Reality," a novella by Charles L. Harness, published in 1953 and reissued in 1969. The basic situation involves a future (1960s!) International Censorship Board, charged with the task of preventing changes in the current reality. The investigator A. Prentiss Rogers, under the orders of E, is studying the activities of a Professor Luce. Luce, it turns out, has developed a device with which he expects to reach the base reality by destroying the present one, through forcing a single photon to reflect off a prism set at *precisely* 45 degrees. The photon will be unable to "decide," and slow down, blowing away the present reality. There is a lot of information presented, in an authentic-sounding manner, about past realities differing from the present. For example, no people until the early Greeks noticed that ships disappeared over the horizon, so the world was flat until then. Or, the elements that Mendeleev predicted to fill the holes in the periodic table did not exist until believed-in. The ending is somewhat disappointing: the base reality is some sort of garden, the A. in Prentiss's name stands for Adam, E is Eve, and Luce is a snake. The reissue contains also "The Rose," a longer and, to me, more interesting novel (Art vs Science), "The Chessplayers," about a chess-playing rat named Zeno, and an introduction by (what, him again?) Michael Moorcock. Time Travel: The most logical time-travel story I read was a short-short whose basic premise was that when one rides in a time machine (a la H G Wells), it's not the machine that moves through time, but its *contents*. pf ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 1982 1750-PST Subject: Leibowitz From: Mike Leavitt is how it is spelled on the book title I've got. Mike ------------------------------ Date: 7 Dec 82 9:33:16-PST (Tue) From: harpo!zeppo!whuxk!houxm!ihnp4!ihldt!tmh at Ucb-C70 Subject: re: pronouncing Leibowitz Although I don't usually flame (and this ain't much of a flame anyway) the reason given for the pronunciation of Leibowitz struck me as so outlandish I felt I had to reply. For one thing Yiddish is Old German and was the language the German Jews fleeing to the East took with them in the Middle Ages/Reforemation. I also believe that Lieb is pronounced Leeb in modern German as well (but not speaking German I am not sure of this). I think English is the language causing confusion not Yiddish or German. After all to quote G. B. Shaw you can justify spelling the word fish as ghothi (or somenthing close to this) in English. The only person qualified to answer the way the name of the is pronounced is the author (vis a vis Byron's Don Juan (pronounced Jou-an not Huan) just to get back at those snotty know-it-alls who spoke Spainish and kept correcting him). Oh well, Tom Harris ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 82 10:00:55-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rocheste!heliotis at Ucb-C70 Subject: My origins into SF This should also go to net.jokes! The first SF book I read as a kid was "The Gilead Bomb". I stayed up late into the night to finish it--it was the first time I had read an entire book in one shot. My intellectual peak came a few years later when I read Asimov's Foundation Trilogy (which is now a 'Quadragy'). Does everyone know about the "YES" song about it? Things went downhill after I joined the SF Book Club, and never sent in the little cards saying I did *NOT* want the selection-of-the-month. My parents ended up with a pile of bills, and I ended up with a shelf full of unread books. By the way, I read "HARLIE" recently, on a recommendation. I thought it had very few redeeming aspects. If anyone disagrees, I'd love to hear some opinions. Jim Heliotis ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 82 11:01:49-PST (Wed) From: npois!houxm!ihnp4!ihima!dhp at Ucb-C70 Subject: Chicago SF Convention Announcing, a Science Fiction Convention: WindyCon IX (a holiday relaxicon) December 10-12 1982 $15 at the door Guests of Honor: Location: Frederik Pohl, Hyatt Lincolnwood Jack Williamson 4500 West Touhy Lincolnwood IL (312) 677-5400 WindyCon is normally a full-spectrum regional convention. However, since Chicago (and more importantly Chicago convention fandom) have just finished hosting the World Science Fiction Convention this year, we decided to try to decompress by throwing a big weekend party. Programming (sic) is minimal, no films, but oh, those all-night parties! An Art Show will allow artists to show off their best, and you can bid on the pieces at the Saturday night auction. The Huckster Room contains book and sf curiosity sellers, for your enlightenment and entertainment. Getting There: By car: Take either the Tri-State Tollway (I-294) or the Edens Expressway (I-94) to Touhy Avenue, and go east. The Hyatt Lincolnwood is a large purple building on the north (left) side of the street, about a mile east of the Edens. By public transport: Take the Howard-Jackson Park/Englewood transit line to Howard Street. From there take either the Route 290 or 291 NORTRAN bus (note - last bus leaves Howard Street at 10:30 p.m.) In addition, the hotel is arranging a shuttle service to the Howard Street Station (sorry, but I have no schedule on that. Call the hotel and ask). Come and enjoy a relaxing weekend with us crazies! Douglas Price Analysts International Corp . at BTL (Indian Hill) IL ...!ihps3!ihima!dhp (312) 979-4416 ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 82 12:13:51-PST (Mon) From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!rtris at Ucb-C70 Subject: Best ST Doesn't anybody out there like Amok Time? It's among my favourites. Ralph. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 1982 2240-EST From: Mike First Subject: City on the Edge of Forever I agree with those who claimed that "City..." was the best ST episode. The connection with Harlan Ellison is not quite what one would expect from the title credits. A number of years ago, Tom Snyder (on his now-defunct Tomorrow Show) had a segment on "Trekkies". He started the segement out with DeForrest Kelley and Jimmy Doohan as guests, and actually made them looke pretty stupid if I remember correctly (if you ever have had the honor to hear them speak ot a convention, you won't be very suprised). Well anyway, in the second half of the episode, he had on Harlan Ellison, who proceeded to claim that ST was crap, that Roddenberry totally altered his script (I believe he even tried to have his name taken off the credits) and that Trekkies were total fools! Given Ellison's personality (and egged on by Snyder) it was not an shocking event. Needless to say, the sharp tongued Ellison did take McCoy and Scotty by surprise and they were rather dumbfounded, kind of mumbling afterward and looking ridiculous (Ellison made some comment about how funny it was that these two actors continue to cater to the Trekkies and that neither has done anything since). I wish I had a VTR for this one! (also I would have loved to have seen the original script-- I still think this "ruined-for-television" version was superlative!) --Michael (FIRST@SUMEX-AIM) ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 82 7:46:59-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!hao!seismo!rocheste!FtG at Ucb-C70 Subject: SW/ESB Q&As Last words (?) on Other/etc.- Flame on- It appears that the main reason that Leia is ignored/discounted as being even a serious candidate for the Other is because she's a SHE (gasp). SF has always been known to be the last refuge of MCPs, so what can you expect? Flame off- Re: "Goodness" of exit of BF's ship. Yes, it is tinged in positive/emotional colors and sound, and it indeed is "in honor" of someone on that ship, but we already know there is a good guy aboard. Think about- (Stumped, here's a hint- his initials are H.S.) Time to start a new discussion- Question: Who's in charge here? The SW movies so far seem to be extremely vague about the leadership of the rebels/Alliance. Why? Who is in charge, where are they, what is their future role in a post-empire government? Princess Leia appears to be the highest ranking royalty, assuming the Alliance is organized along those lines. Luke is said to be in charge of the rebel forces on Hoth though, despite the fact he is merely "Commander" while there is Leia and a general around. (Apparently even in the SW universe, no on ehas figured out that separation of services is a bad idea, the empire also suffers from the same problem.) If we knew who the true leaders of the rebels are, we could figure out whjo comes out ahead in RotJ. FtG rocheste! ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 1982 0323-EST From: Greg Skinner Subject: SW <--> Tolkien Actually, the Emperor <--> Morgoth, since Morgoth is at the top of the list of enemies. In addition, we don't know who the Emperor really *is* yet -- according to the SW book his former name was Senator Palpatine. This leads me to believe that the Emperor is some "other" sort of character who, like Vader, chose the dark side. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 1982 02:36:50-EST From: csin!alex at CCA-UNIX Subject: No, there is another. To me it is interesting that Vader told Luke to release his anger, "Only your hatred (anger?) can destroy me." This is of course the opposite of what Yoda and Obi-wan have said ("Mind what you have learned -- save you it can"). When Luke started getting emotional was when he started losing control of the Force -- here we see that the Dark side is controlled by strong negative emotions, whereas the good side is almost a Zen-like trance. Is it possible that Vader's disclosure that he was Luke's father was what helped Luke in the end? Recall that at that time Luke was beaten and injured, and hanging on for his life at the end of the ... thing. Luke did not accept the implication of Vader's disclosure, however, and looked down and allowed himself to fall. The way it looked to me, he had regained some calm and control when he did that. Later on the Falcon, when Vader mind-speaks to him, his reaction is not to Vader -- he hears Vader but does not respond, either negatively or positively to Vader. Instead, he wonders why Ben didn't tell him. Clearly he accepts the fact that Vader is his father at that point. But he does not accept any implications of that fact. NOW FOR A SPOILER. At ChiCon, some of the information we gleaned from the LucasFilm people (who, me? I was sitting in the fourth row....) indicated that there will be only two planetfalls (Dagobah and Tatooine), and that no new major characters were being introduced. Also, all loose ends will be tied up. Some of this is inferred, some is from statements made by the LucasFilm rep. (I can't remember if it was Gary Kurtz or someone else.) Alexis Layton alex@CCA-UNIX decvax!cca!alex P.S. Would someone who was there please mail me? I want to check my memory on something. ------------------------------ Date: Tue Dec 7 13:25:39 1982 From: decvax!utzoo!watmath!watarts!geo@Berkeley Subject: The Other Interesting suggestion that OB1, Darth, the Emperor and Boba Fett might be clones of one another. I seem to recall that Darth was much taller than OB1. Did OB1 then have a stunted childhood ? Just how did all these clones get distributed around all over the place. What kind of childhood did they have? Geo Swan Integrated Studies University of Waterloo ------------------------------ Date: 8 Dec 82 12:02:26-PST (Wed) From: hplabs!hp-pcd!everett (Everett Kaser) at Ucb-C70 Subject: Re: Stardates and ROTJ - (nf) #R:sri-unix:-471800:hp-pcd:8200006:000:1083 hp-pcd!everett Dec 8 08:37:00 1982 From: Everett Kaser hplabs!hp-pcd Revenge of the Jedai does *not* take place before Star Wars. It follows directly after The Empire Strikes Back (both in the order it was produced and in the chronological order of the story). The Star Wars epic as it is supposed to be conceived of by George Lucas is this: It consists of nine parts (movies) broken up into three trilogies; Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back, and Revenge of the Jedai are the middle three movies, or the second trilogy. The first trilogy is suppose to be about the fall of the original republic, the second about the fight of the republics remnant (the rebels) against the empire, and the third about the rebirth of the republic (or something along those lines; if I'm grossly wrong, I'm sure I'll hear about it). RotJ will tell the story of Han Solo recovering his mobility ('loosing his cool', so to speak?), Luke facing off with Darth Vader, etc. etc. Therefore, if Obi whatever is again corporeal, it's because he's regained his physical being, not because the movie takes place 'before' Star Wars. ------------------------------ End of SF-LOVERS Digest *********************** Brought to you by Super Global Mega Corp .com