Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/26/83; site ihuxk.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!harpo!gummo!whuxlb!pyuxll!eisx!npoiv!npois!hogpc!houxm!hocda!spanky!burl!sb1!ll1!otuxa!we13!ihnp4!ihuxk!jdj55611 From: jdj55611@ihuxk.UUCP Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: The case against the Book of Mormon Message-ID: <417@ihuxk.UUCP> Date: Tue, 9-Aug-83 08:16:36 EDT Article-I.D.: ihuxk.417 Posted: Tue Aug 9 08:16:36 1983 Date-Received: Wed, 10-Aug-83 19:16:41 EDT Organization: BTL Naperville, Il. Lines: 154 I hope I am not stealing Russ's thunder but I thought I would add a few words about Jon Whites article on the Book of Mormon. I quote from his article: >>All historical evidence from this time period >>indicates that Joe Smith was a reprehensible character from a family of >>equally reprehensible characters. They were widely regarded as rip-off >>artists and "money diggers" (treasure hunters) by their neighbors >>(sixty-two of whom testified to this effect in a sworn affidavit). The question I propose deals with the validity of these `documented' writings. I find it interesting that NONE OF THESE DOCUMENTS CONTAINED SPECIFIC ACCOUNTS OF ANY CRIMES. These documents were obtained by man named Hurlburt who, after leaving the church, sent a number of anti-Mormons to the Palmyra area to seek such information. What would you expect them to find? It is interesting to note the parallel between the methods described above and those used by Celsus who gathered similar testimony about another young lad, Jesus of Nazareth. Celsus reported that `the neighbors all remembered the clever ambitious boy who was ashamed of his low parentage and overawed the yokels with the magic tricks he had picked up in Egypt, and how he gave out those wild reports about being the Son of God and the rest.' Celsus also had a few kind words to say about the Apostles: `He gathered some ten or eleven notorious men about him, publicans and sailors of the most vicious type, and with these he tramped up and down the country, eking out a miserable existence by questionable means.' (Origen, C. Cels. I, 27, Sab XII, iv [Talmud]). How were these reports gathered? The Jewish leaders sent people out to the village to find the information. >>There exists absolutely no pro-Mormon statements from reliable and informed >>who knew the Smith family intimately. "My father owned a farm near the Smith family in New York. My parents were friends of the Smith family which was one of the best in that locality- honest, religious, and industrious but poor." -Mrs. Palmer "Were you acquainted with the Smiths, Mr. Sanders?" "Yes sir; I knew all the Smith family well. They have all worked for me many a day. They were very good people... They were the best family in the neighborhood in case of sickness; one was at my house nearly all the time when my father died. I always thought them honest. They were owing me some money when they left here. One of them came back in about a year and paid me." -Orlando Saunders These are but two of over two hundred eyewitness accounts of Joseph Smith and his family contained in a book entitled `They Knew the Prophet' by Hyrum Andrus. Each account contains the references you would need to verify the source. Jon, you talk about honesty. Do you feel that Martin was giving an honest portrayal of the character of Joseph Smith? Do you accept without question what critics say about the church? If so, I would like to talk to you about a fantastic deal I can get for you on the Brooklyn Bridge. :-) >>In 1827 the location of the golden plates was revealed to Joe, and he >>set to work digging them up and translating them into English. They >>were supposedly written in "reformed Egyptian," but he was conveniently >>provided with two magic stones (sound familiar?) that he used as spectacles >>for translating. No independent witness ever laid eyes on the gold plates... Let's see what is available. In the front of The Book of Mormon is a statement called `The Testimony of Three Witnesses' signed by Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer and Martin Harris. A portion of this statement follows: "...we,through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record... And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God; for his voice hath declared it unto is; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true..." Here is the testimony of three men who were given a chance to see and handle the plates. You are probably saying `Here's the rest of the troop that pulled the hoax with Joseph Smith. What do you expect them to say?' What is interesting is that all three of these men left the church and the association of Joseph Smith, yet they NEVER recanted their testimony of The Book of Mormon. Here was the perfect opportunity to blow the whole charade, all they would have to do is say `Yes, it was a hoax' and the entire work would be tarnished. But they didn't. Perhaps they couldn't deny what they saw... >>Another indication of the shaky nature of the Book of Mormon is >>revealed in the fact that there have been over 2,000 changes to >>the book over a period of 131 years. There were a number of grammmatical errors in the first edition of The Book of Mormon. There were also a number of changes which may be interpreted by some to be doctrinal. These changes were entered by Joseph Smith himself between the 1830 and 1840 editions of the book. If this were an attempt by Smith to rewrite history I would be worried; examination of the changes indicates that this is not the case. There are quite a number of `those who' becoming `they which' and the like. One on the more interesting is shown: "1 Ne 11:18 and he said unto "And he said unto me: Behold, me, Behold, the virgin which the virgin whom thou seest is thou seest, is the mother of the mother of the Son of God, God, after the manner of the after the manner of the flesh." flesh." Orson Whitney relates an experience wherein he was approached by a stranger. The stranger asked Whitney in effect this question. "Mr. Whitney, why did the Lord permit a grammatical error to be in the Book of Mormon?" "Oh, is there a grammatical error in the Book of Mormon?" asked Whitney. The stranger thereupon showed him a grammatical error. Whitney observed the `error' and gazing upon the man, replied: "So it is. I suppose the Lord permitted that to be in the Book of Mormon to keep men like you out of the Church." As far as archeology is concerned, it is of note that the Book of Mormon was published 80 years before the discovery of Maccu Piccu. To say that there is no archeological support for the Book is totally off-base. A recent Nova on the latest finds in Central America indicated that the major colonizations occurred around 2000 B. C. and 600 B. C. which is in agreement with the Book of Mormon. How about the more than 200 metal plate inscriptions which have been found by non-Mormons, and other recent findings such as the Chiapas stone which "offers the first sound evidence of the near-eastern origin of its carvers - an origin set in the Book of Mormon. The study and evaluation of this stone followed the quidelines set down by Dr. Alfred L Kroeber, a non-Mormon authority on the Anthropological Theory and formerly of the University of California. It may be of interest to note that the name glyphs on the carving have been translated as `Lehi, Sariah, and Nephi'" (El Paso Times, July 5, 1965) The names are of prominent figures on the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith Jr. and hundreds of others died for what they believed in. The tribulations that the Church went through in the 1830's and 40's would have shaken the foundation of any man-made plans. If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the result of a `hoax' then it will come to nought and you need not worry about it; but if the story is true, I would caution you about relying on the likes of Martin and Budvarson to gain your information. J. D. Jensen ihuxk!jdj55611 BTL Naperville IL