Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/26/83; site ihuxi.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!harpo!eagle!mhuxt!mhuxi!cbosgd!ihnp4!ihuxi!rcj1 From: rcj1@ihuxi.UUCP Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re:Re: Even if I DID believe... Message-ID: <521@ihuxi.UUCP> Date: Thu, 11-Aug-83 17:06:03 EDT Article-I.D.: ihuxi.521 Posted: Thu Aug 11 17:06:03 1983 Date-Received: Sat, 13-Aug-83 00:14:37 EDT Organization: BTL Naperville, Il. Lines: 238 A response to Tim's response to John. Disclaimer - I am using Johns and Tim's text unmodified; consequently, any misspellings and such in their stuff are their's. ******************************************************************************* Are we reading the same book?!! I find in my Bible that Yahweh IS Jesus; read the first chapter of John. Christ revealed the Father, who was unknown until then. Apparently not. The book I'm reading is called the Bible -- I don't know which one you are using. For instance, check out Matthew 2:15 -- "... This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken through the prophet: 'I called my son out of Egypt'." (This is of course in reference to the flight of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph into Egypt.) Yahweh said that to Hosea in Hosea 11:1. If Yahweh and Jesus are the same, then the prophecy was not fulfilled and Matthew is in error. If Jesus is the son of Yahweh, then Matthew is correct. Your Bible does include Matthew, doesn't it? ***************************************************************************** I tend to agree with John on this, that is John 12:44,45 And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in me believes not in me but in him who sent me. And he who sees me sees him who sent me. Also John 8:19 They said to him therefore, "Where is your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither me nor my Father; if you know me you would know my Father also. John 10:30 I and the Father are *ONE* (emphasis mine). Especially read I Tim 3:16 and then you tell me your interpretation. (Hosea 13:4 I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no saviour. Ex 4.22 ..thus says the Lord, Israel is my first-born son... Mt 1:21 ...and you shall call his name Jesus, for he wil save his people from their sins...) ************************************************************************** All those down through history who were never called and so had no chance to know God's plan will be resurrected in the great general resurrection. They will be taught God's truth without Satan to influence them. They will have 100 years to build character and accept or reject membership in God's family. Those who reject it will be burned up in the lake of fire; they will NOT exist in suffering and misery for all eternity. A nice story. I find it interesting that Jesus never bothered to tell us any of it. In fact, he flatly contradicts your statement that there is no eternal damnation, but I'll get to that later. ************************************************************************** Here I agree with Tim. Scripture says it all, Mt 18:8,9, Rev. 20. **************************************************************************** When God changes us from mortal physical beings to immortal spirit beings, we will then have the POWER to do the good we could only will to do before. Which is what? Do you mean create our own race of flawed beings to torture? Whee! **************************************************************************** I believe what John is getting at here is what took place in the upper room at the Feast of Pentecost. See the book of Acts, chapters 1-3. The apostles at times were unsure of themselves, made mistakes, had doubts etc, etc. However, Jesus assured them that after he leaves, the comforter will come, in the form of the Holy Ghost. Along with the Holy Ghost came the gifts of the Holy Ghost to some of them. Also see Ezek 36:26 for his prophesy of this phenomena. *************************************************************************** Because of this attitude, God has kept hands off. He is allowing man 6000 years to try every form of government possible. This to prove that man CANNOT rule himself. Then God will rule the Earth for 1000 years to prove that following Gods way will lead to everything man has always wanted. Man's free moral agency will not be taken away. Satan will be taken away and men will not be allowed to do things that will harm others. They will still be able to harm themselves by disobedience. Your figures are fascinating, and I think it's really great that God told them to you, because they are not anywhere in the Bible. Where are you getting all this stuff? *************************************************************************** Here I agree with John. Tim, its called the millenium period. See Rev 20:5,6 (This is a good subject and I may comment on it in the future.) ****************************************************************************** rains doom on those who dare to try to be as knowledgable as he is, and so on. No one can even conceive of how knowledgable God is, but He does NOT restrict us - He encourages us to learn all we can. Tell it to the workers at the Tower of Babel. In case your memory fails you here, Gen. 11:6-7 says, "'So they are all a single people with a single language!' said Yahweh. 'This is but the start of their undertakings! There will be nothing too hard for them to do. [ Horrors! -- tim ] Come, let us go down and confuse their language on the spot so that they can no longer understand one another.'" Yahweh deliberately acts to restrict man's capability for understanding. Again, either you or the Bible is wrong. **************************************************************************** As a child I was taught that the Tower of Babel was someones attempt to enter heaven the easy way. Could this have been Nimrods idea? Or was it that he being ....the first on earth to be a mighty man Gen 10:x saw compitition in God and wanted to raise himself to His (Gods) level? Or that Nimrod did not believe that God would not flood the earth again as He did earlier, so he wanted to build something high enough to escape the flood waters.... What ever Nimrods reason for the Tower, it was against the will of God. (So Nimrod went on to Assyria, and we all know about Nin'eveh.) ******************************************************************************* Jesus preaching love in no way atones for these many hideous crimes; lest we forget, it was at this time that he created Hell. Please don't embarrass yourself by claiming otherwise; it is at no time mentioned in the Old Testament, and the wrathful and threatening god of the Old Testament would hardly omit any chance to terrify his worshippers. I'm not embarrassed to proclaim that there is no everburning hell as many "christians" picture. No such thing is mentioned in the New Testament either. The "gehenna" fire doesn't cause eternal torment, it burns up. Those burned in it will be dead! (Again, Christ IS the God of the Old Testament!) Again you make these claims, and again you show that you have not read the synoptic gospels. See the many quotes above that directly contradict you. ************************************************************************** Sure Hell is not mentioned in the O.T. but something that represents a place of damnation sure is! Deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol,... Isaiah 14:15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit.. Ezekial also prophesies about Sheol, and the Pit!!!! Could this be the same "pit" mentioned in Revelations??? ***************************************************************************** Again, it is marvelous that you know this thing, since it is not anywhere stated or implied in the Bible. Never does God encourage scientific progress. At the Tower of Babel, he deliberately thwarts it. Nor do I see any reason he should encourage it in your model. ***************************************************************************** Why do you consider the Tower of Babel scientific progress? They already had the building materials. So it was not as if they were inventing as they went along. If they constructed a mile-high tower it still would have only been a mile-high tower... Now the Pyramids, and Cheops, now thats scientific progress. Or didn't God realize it? *************************************************************************** In that case, it gives pleasure to the god, just as I said. I have already detailed why I don't like this god, and I refuse to give him pleasure. By the way, if you think that Yahweh doesn't encourage ritual mumbo-jumbo, you obviously haven't read the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible. Why is it that I, neither Jew nor Christian, have read these books, and you, a Christian, has not? **************************************************************************** This mumbo-jumbo ritual stuff that took place inn the O.T. is no longer necessary because of Christ. I won't go into it but please see Pauls letter to the Galatians especially chapter 3. ***************************************************************************** Christians have been saying this for about two thousand years now. It is clear from the gospels that Jesus thought that it was about to happen shortly after his death. Before the Christians, the Zoroastrians were saying it. Yet the world still turns, and there is still no reason to think of these claims as other than pipe-dreams to mollify the masses. ***************************************************************************** The only thing I can say here is 2 Peter 3:8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. Also: Ps90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past or as a watch in the night. ************************************************************************* He will "FORCE man to live in peace"?!?! That is a prima facie contradiction. However, let's see how your god stands up to his own standards. In Matthew 26:41-46, we hear the King, "Next he will say to those on his left hand, 'Go away from me, with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you never gave me food; I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink; I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, naked and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me.' ... And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life." In the light of this, your god himself is the worst of sinners; if there is no double standard, he will be at the head of that line into eternal punishment. ****************************************************************************** Tim, you left out the best part: Mt25:45 ....then he will answer them, "Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me." Seems to me the overall picture Jesus is trying to get across is: Hey, help those who need it, don't be selfish, be kind to people. If things get rough don't expect me to come to your aid if you aren't complying... I believe Jesus' main objective here on earth was to teach, not that He didn't take time out for such things as feeding the multitude, healing the blind, raising the dead etc,etc. Quite often he remarked to his disciples, "Oh Ye of little faith" when they felt troubled or threatened.(they always ran crying to Jesus when they probably could have straightened out the problem for themselves.) As for the hope of mankind? I hope to comment on this in the future when I find time. Ray, ihuxi!rcj1