Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site houxu.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!floyd!whuxlb!pyuxll!eisx!npoiv!npois!hogpc!houxm!houxu!welsch From: welsch@houxu.UUCP Newsgroups: net.flame Subject: A Reply to jj on Karl and Guns Message-ID: <210@houxu.UUCP> Date: Thu, 29-Sep-83 16:21:00 EDT Article-I.D.: houxu.210 Posted: Thu Sep 29 16:21:00 1983 Date-Received: Sat, 1-Oct-83 18:57:49 EDT Organization: Bell Labs, Holmdel NJ Lines: 103 JJ's comments are indented. Larry Welsch appears to believe that anyone who wants a hand gun is by defination stupid. I never said this. I did say that someone who uses an empty gun as a threat, is stupid. Karl did this. He alleges, without support (especially offensive since he clearly cannot know the entire situation), that Karl was responsible for his own injuries. He then argues that, since Karl was "responsible" for his own injuries, Karl should not be allowed to carry a gun. I never said this or said words to this effect. Please do not put words in my mouth. I did say that if the situation warranted a gun for protection then the police should have been called. Because of Karl's lack of judgement about recognizing when the police should be notified, his willingness to play the macho-cowboy role and Karl's use of an empty gun as a threat, I don't believe that Karl should have a permit to carry a gun. I propose that these ad-hominem attacks on Karl, and on his supporters, demonstrate that Larry, and others, feel that victims deserve to be victims. This is utter nonsense and I wonder if jj read my articles. Larry has run on and on and on about how Karl was responsible for his own injuries. I never said Karl was responsible for his own injuries. I did say that I wouldn't be surprised if Karl was shot and killed while pointing an empty gun at someone. He hasn't shown why that was the case (it seems that some people feel that the act of calling the police solves all problems. I didn't say that calling the police solves all problems. The obviously have no idea what to do until the police arrive.), but he continues to argue that Karl acted so stupidly as to not deserve a handgun. This is false. I stated that Karl should stay in his apartment. I also said that if the enraged husband attempted to break into Karl's apartment while Karl was waiting for the police then Karl should shoot the husband as a matter of defense. I stated this course of action in my previous article. The argument is certainly specious. I think it's also slanderous. I notice that no one has made a similar judgement about the actual criminal in this case. The husband should be apprehended by the police and taken to court for trial. A person acting as Karl has described also should not be given a permit to own a gun. Certainly the situation would have been much worse if the husband had a hand gun or rifle and used it. Perhaps some of you folk feel that the criminal had a right to take lives, since he was a criminal? Are you asking? No I don't feel the husband, has the right to take lives. Do you feel he does? Does Karl have the right to take lives? Do you have the right to take lives? Does the state have the right to take lives? I think that the knee jerking arguments against handguns show clearly that those capable of self defense should be allowed to act in their own behalf. No one said that Karl did not have the right to act in his own behalf. The question in my mind "is Karl capable of self defense?" Based on Karl's statements I think not. A person capable of self defense would have called the police immediately and not have pointed an empty gun at anyone. After all, those who think that self defense should be illegal have shown by their arguments that they feel that a criminal's life has more value that a victim's life. This is nonsense. But, I do get upset about firing guns in apartment complexes. In an apartment building where I used to live a person fired a "legal hand gun" for which he had a permit. The bullet went through 1 window and 1 wall before lodging in a third wall. The window and walls were in my apartment and the bullet could very easily have hit me. Oh, the burgler he was aiming at escaped. I was scared and still am. Stop picking on Karl, start proposing ways that he could have protected himself against deadly force. Calling the police only counts AFTER they arrive. I agree. Please read my last article and my comments in this article. Larry Welsch houxu!welsch